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I'm a Chaos player and have been playing 40K, Epic etc for roughly 20 years now. So what possible question could I have that I don't know the answer to?

Easy, loads, 'cos they keep changing the rules and subtly changing the emphasis on things.

I played against my Blood Angels mate the other day and we came across this problem....

Dreadnoughts in close combat. I stupidly allowed two dreads to charge my front line. Fair enough. However, dreadnoughts can be locked in combat which means they can't be shot at - they fight as toopers. They're also not classed as Monsterous, so you can't shoot at them whilst they're in close combat. Yet, they STILL block line of sight for units that are not locked in the close assault. This seems a little unfair.

You should either be able to shoot at the damn things (like you can against the bloodthirster) or they should not block line of site.
 

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I agree, that is a hole in the rules right there. I hope they address it, because I can see how it could cause some problems.
 

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I don't see an issue with it. All combats block LOS so having a dread in the mix changes nothing. Shooting into a combat is a bad thing no matter how big the target is... the model might not be moving but what is being represented is a swirling melee and it would be very easy to rip apart your friends by mistake.

You cannot shoot a MC in combat either. You cannot target any locked unit/model.
 

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Porn King!!!
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Physically true, but irrelevant ruleswise. Combat is combat and it all blocks line of size. The size of the combatants within the combat does not have any effect on this in anyway.

Although it would be cool to be able to shoot MC's and large targets in cc! :D
 

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I was talking in real life. Dreads are like 15 or 20 feet tall. The average infantryman is anywhere from 5-8 feet tall, but even so, they pale in comparison to a dread.
 

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the answer is already stated. NO!! you may not shoot a dread locked in combat. True it may be 15-20 feet tall, but when that thing is flailling around and crusshing peoples heads, its a mighty hard-to-hit target. Not to mention the writer stated he playes epic. not sure about the differences in rules, but maybe you can shoot MC in epic. Overall though the combat cannot be shot into or through.

(Here's a fun question. Why cant you fire into a group of only enemies in a multi-team game? House rules by me say that you roll a d6 to randomize the firing (you roll a d6 after hitting and before wounding 1-3 hits player A and 4-6 hits player B or whatever the ammount of players are) its worked pretty well here.
 

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They never made firing into combat rules because it would be ludicrously complex to calculate a properly fair means of doing it, and without it firepower armies, especially Guard and Tau with their sacrificial squads, would utterly immune to CC.
 

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uberschveinen said:
They never made firing into combat rules because it would be ludicrously complex to calculate a properly fair means of doing it, and without it firepower armies, especially Guard and Tau with their sacrificial squads, would utterly immune to CC.
Good point (I think) its all about balance baby! Some rules are there not so much to represent the real world as to facilitate fair and enjoyable gameplay 8)
 

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The Wraithlord said:
Physically true, but irrelevant ruleswise. Combat is combat and it all blocks line of size. The size of the combatants within the combat does not have any effect on this in anyway.

Although it would be cool to be able to shoot MC's and large targets in cc! :D
Hmmm, and here I was thinking that combat blocked LOS based on the height of the participating models.....
Page 20, main rulebook. So size does matter..........

And no, you can't shoot at a monstrous creature that is in hth.
 

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If the model is physically above the combat then in certain situations it could shoot over it. But in general, you can't. I have heard arguements that MC's should be able to shoot over combat at targets due to their height but nowhere does it say that.
 

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Close combat only blocks LOS for models of equal or lesser size. For example, Marines on a small hill can shoot over a close combat of size 2 models due to the hills added size.

The Dreadnought however is size 3 and there fore blocks LOS for anyne size 3 or less. Now in my example, the marines on the hill would have to find something else to stand on that added up to or equaled size 2. size 2 marines +size 2 hill = size 4. Now they can shoot over the close combat.
 

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pathwinder14 said:
Close combat only blocks LOS for models of equal or lesser size. For example, Marines on a small hill can shoot over a close combat of size 2 models due to the hills added size.

The Dreadnought however is size 3 and there fore blocks LOS for anyne size 3 or less. Now in my example, the marines on the hill would have to find something else to stand on that added up to or equaled size 2. size 2 marines +size 2 hill = size 4. Now they can shoot over the close combat.
So are you suggesting that if i put my marine gunline on level 2/3 terrain, i count as level 4/5 so can see over all the level 3 terrain on the table so no one can hide from me?

If there's level 3 in combat, you can't shoot over it i'd say.
 

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The Wraithlord said:
If the model is physically above the combat then in certain situations it could shoot over it. But in general, you can't. I have heard arguements that MC's should be able to shoot over combat at targets due to their height but nowhere does it say that.
Ummm, yes, it does, at least, for some combats (ie those not including size 3 models).
Page 20, models block LOS based on size of models locked and/or engaged in the combat.
Page 20 same paragraph, model height, if shooter or target is taller than tallest model in teh combat blocking LOS, you have LOS and can shoot.
Sooooo, if all the models in the combat are size 2 or smaller, then any size 3 model can shoot over it and/or be shot at. However, if there is a size 3 model involved in the hth, then the entire scrum blocks LOS as a size 3 object.
 

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Fallen Angel said:
pathwinder14 said:
Close combat only blocks LOS for models of equal or lesser size. For example, Marines on a small hill can shoot over a close combat of size 2 models due to the hills added size.

The Dreadnought however is size 3 and there fore blocks LOS for anyne size 3 or less. Now in my example, the marines on the hill would have to find something else to stand on that added up to or equaled size 2. size 2 marines +size 2 hill = size 4. Now they can shoot over the close combat.
So are you suggesting that if i put my marine gunline on level 2/3 terrain, i count as level 4/5 so can see over all the level 3 terrain on the table so no one can hide from me?

If there's level 3 in combat, you can't shoot over it i'd say.
And you would be correct. A Marine on top of a size 2 hill is considered to be size 2, nowhere does it say anything about adding the sizes together. And that's assuming you assigned a "height value" to the hill, since most hills are not considered area terrain and only area terrain actually has height values.
The ONLY advantage to being on a hill is when shooting over non-area terrain, ie items that do not have a height value and use their actual physical characterisitcs, see the bit on page 20 about vehicles, monstrous creatures, etc blocking LOS but you use models eye view to shoot over/around them.
 

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Actually it does add to your height...for shooting and LOS purposes. A size 2 model on a size 2 hill counts as size 4 for shooting puroposes and LOS. He is still a size 2 model however.
 

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pathwinder14 said:
Actually it does add to your height...for shooting and LOS purposes. A size 2 model on a size 2 hill counts as size 4 for shooting puroposes and LOS. He is still a size 2 model however.
Page number for that rule is.....????
 

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i thought dreads could walk away from cc if they so desired. thats the rules i've always played because thats what i've always been told instore.
 

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don_mondo said:
Page number for that rule is.....????
There isnt one. The confusion arises from the line "The unit may count the level of the terrain that they are on..." or some such. People often take it to mean that you add the level of the terrain to the level of the model.
Where what is actually meant is that your model can count as the level of terrain that it is on. So a unit of devastators on a size 3 wreck can shoot over a level 2 combat.
 
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