[Magpie_Oz]

And this right here is the problem with GW atm, feels like they go out of their way to leech as much money as they can out of their customers.

A business that is built on miniatures and the rules for a game of those miniatures actually wants to get money for what it produces?

How can that come as unusual or a surprise.

Did the person who complied these rules do it for free? are the printers and shippers doing it because they are dedicated 40k'ers?

Bottom line. GW is a business with massive overheads and they need to make money.

I don't want my rules to be a print out from my own shitty bubble jet I want a groovy bound book. If you have the free printouts you can't make the book as no one will buy it.

 

[MadCowCrazy]

Difference here is that they force you to get it. Sure you can ignore it and simply not get it, but then you cant use the Ork Bommer and those SM fliers (unless you track down the WD or donwload the rules illegally).

Like I said before, the Bommer, Storm Raven and Storm Talon cost an extra £20 now with this book. They should add the rules for them to the FAQs, not force you to buy a compendium for a single model for your army. It's not even a full page of rules for the units, all 3 could fit on a single A4 page.

I will be getting this book later this week or next week at the latest because I have no other choice, but I'm not gonna pay for it.

 

[Magpie_Oz]

They "force" you to buy any of the rulebooks/Codicies. Just be thankfull they don't simply reprint each Codex with the new rule in it and you only have to pay $AU48 to get the update for all armies rather than $AU83 for a new Codex.

Don't worry mate, I'll pay to keep your hobby going you just steal what ever you want.

 

[MadCowCrazy]

Who said I was stealin? The club is getting a copy so everyone can use it...
Kinda useless as only 2 ppl in the club even has fliers to begin with and the other guy has IG so has all the rules he needs anyways.

 

[scscofield]

I will probably 'acquire' a digital copy. Thanks for helping Mags

 

[Magpie_Oz]

Who said I was stealin? The club is getting a copy so everyone can use it...
Kinda useless as only 2 ppl in the club even has fliers to begin with and the other guy has IG so has all the rules he needs anyways.

Anything you get without paying would be stealing but of course if a group of you are chipping in to buy a copy that's fine by me.

Scoze can bite my bum tho'

 

[Taggerung]

They "force" you to buy any of the rulebooks/Codicies. Just be thankfull they don't simply reprint each Codex with the new rule in it and you only have to pay $AU48 to get the update for all armies rather than $AU83 for a new Codex.

Don't worry mate, I'll pay to keep your hobby going you just steal what ever you want.

Privateer Press does the correct method of doing rules imo...You buy the model, it comes with it's rules. There is a core rule book (Which is incidentally free as well I believe, and they do quite well as a business). What people are complaining is not that they have to buy rules, but that they must buy a new book that contains rules for armies you probably don't even use/own. IF they had made it so there is this new book, or the option to individually pay/download the rules for relevant units then it wouldn't be an issue. As it sits, I only have the dakka jet as a flier, and won't be getting any others, so I will happily go out, download my rules to play a model I did pay for, and not even think twice.

So you go ahead and be that white knight if that makes you feel better about yourself.

 

[MadCowCrazy]

I will probably 'acquire' a digital copy. Thanks for helping Mags

I will be downloading the pdf as well. I have every book GW and FW has ever put out on pdf, we also have every book at the local club but in my 4 years of gaming I have NEVER seen anyone use any of the rules from any of the books. I hate reading the paper rule books, I prefer to scroll through the pdfs as it's faster and you have the search function etc.
I've never even opened my Dark Eldar codex, it's been in the shelf since the DE came out. Got the pdf 7 days before release, read it and use it for all my needs.
The only thing I use the books for is when I play and I can't remember a rule or what a specific piece of wargear does.

I guess Battlemissions would be an exception, we tried that 3 Baneblade mission once and never opened the book after that.

 

[bitsandkits]

Privateer Press does the correct method of doing rules imo...You buy the model, it comes with it's rules. There is a core rule book (Which is incidentally free as well I believe, and they do quite well as a business). What people are complaining is not that they have to buy rules, but that they must buy a new book that contains rules for armies you probably don't even use/own. IF they had made it so there is this new book, or the option to individually pay/download the rules for relevant units then it wouldn't be an issue. As it sits, I only have the dakka jet as a flier, and won't be getting any others, so I will happily go out, download my rules to play a model I did pay for, and not even think twice.

So you go ahead and be that white knight if that makes you feel better about yourself.

well privateer press also release rule books and they also release rule books for new types of models, for example here is there latest release
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/books/warmachine-colossals
this is the book with the rules and stats for the new colossal models for each race, so if you want to use colossals in your warmachine game here is the book to make it possible, so GW and PP are doing the very same thing, yet GW are the villains ?

I agree with magpie, i dont want a pdf version unless its an exact copy of the paper version and it was free with my paper copy to be used on my tablet, otherwise i want a bound physical copy,full colour,loads of pretty pictures and fluffy shite that i can flick through while i drink a coffee and i dont mind paying for it.

I do also agree with taggertug, that each unit should come with some type of stat card in the box, even if it only meant units could be used in a limited way with dark vengeance.



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[Magpie_Oz]

What is about all these guys who think they deserve a free ride?

Privateer Press "doing the right thing" is simply because they don't have the facilities to cover the costs of producing a properly printed series of books. It's any easy way to buy into the market that GW sustains.

 

[nevynxxx]

I don't want my rules to be a print out from my own shitty bubble jet I want a groovy bound book. If you have the free printouts you can't make the book as no one will buy it.

Actually Paizo have proved that to be entirely not true, and they don't even have the model sales to fall back on, they are a pure rules/books outfit.

Paizo make all the *rules* content open, and even have a free pdf version. They keep all the IP closed though, so they can keep their world "pure" as GW would think of it. They then sell dirt cheap PDF versions of their rulebooks, which make great references, and also sell hard copies. If you subscribe to a book line, you even get the PDFs for free. Needless to say, I have more Printed Paizo books, than I do GW ones. They are better quality, and longer....but still based on a free rules system.... I just wish someone at GW would wake up and smell the coffee....

Fundamentally though, you are right. GW is a 1980s business model struggling to keep up with the times, and unless there is a *massive* shift in that business model (which will result in compromises some will *hate*) then the status quo is going to continue for a good while.

They have a model, it works for them, as proved by the fact that DnD has been owned by 3 companies in the time that GW has been going strong.

 

[Taggerung]

well privateer press also release rule books and they also release rule books for new types of models, for example here is there latest release
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/books/warmachine-colossals
this is the book with the rules and stats for the new colossal models for each race, so if you want to use colossals in your warmachine game here is the book to make it possible, so GW and PP are doing the very same thing, yet GW are the villains ?

That book you reference is more like an expansion, similar to apocalypse I believe, so not exactly the same thing since all the models in that book, when you purchase them, come with their own rules included.

I see what point you are trying to prove, but my entire point was that if there is a release of a new model and accompanying rule set, they should be available in a single version, free would be nice considering the cost of GW products, but even a paid version for each individual model if need be, HOWEVER when you have models such as a Vendetta or a Necron Scythe getting new updates rules, that SHOULD be done with an errata, not a shameless one language rules update book. In the end, it's great for people who want that, and well for those of us who find such a book absolutely a waste of money, then we shall go find it elsewhere on the interwebz.

I myself, have every single codex downloaded, mostly for reference, but for each army I own models for, I have a paid for, hard copy of their codex, and I would expect everyone to have the same, and I just don't feel the same way about this kind of book, at all.

 

[Taggerung]

What is about all these guys who think they deserve a free ride?

Privateer Press "doing the right thing" is simply because they don't have the facilities to cover the costs of producing a properly printed series of books. It's any easy way to buy into the market that GW sustains.

And yet they do. You can buy every single pdf they have of the rules in a couple of nice hard bound books. However, they also give you the rules for free, either online or with the models, since their money comes from the models, not the rules, and it's a way better way to get people into the hobby as it keeps initial costs down so it's easier to get started.

I don't have a source on it, so this is given with a grain of salt, but supposedly WarMachine is actually outselling Warhammer. 40k is still the giant, and will be for quite some time I imagine, but it's not like Privateer Press is some small time fry pecking at GW's tail end. They seem to developed quite a following and profits as a result.

 

[bitsandkits]

That book you reference is more like an expansion, similar to apocalypse I believe, so not exactly the same thing since all the models in that book, when you purchase them, come with their own rules included.

I see what point you are trying to prove, but my entire point was that if there is a release of a new model and accompanying rule set, they should be available in a single version, free would be nice considering the cost of GW products, but even a paid version for each individual model if need be, HOWEVER when you have models such as a Vendetta or a Necron Scythe getting new updates rules, that SHOULD be done with an errata, not a shameless one language rules update book. In the end, it's great for people who want that, and well for those of us who find such a book absolutely a waste of money, then we shall go find it elsewhere on the interwebz.

I myself, have every single codex downloaded, mostly for reference, but for each army I own models for, I have a paid for, hard copy of their codex, and I would expect everyone to have the same, and I just don't feel the same way about this kind of book, at all.

well i did kinda see this book(death from the skies) in the same vane as Apocalypse, though i guess flyers are now pretty mainstream, im not saying this approach to flyers is the best way for the "customer" to get the info he needs, im not saying GW couldn't do it in a more customer friendly way or one that doesn't need people to hand over cash, its just personally i would prefer to hand over cash for a book, an actual physical object made of paper, im pretty old school, i wont buy music or movies unless i get a physical object, im have to rip a cd or movie to watch on my lap top, but i want the cd/dvd too.
Personally i feel that print on demand or free pdfs just cheapens my hobby for me.

If i was to make a criticism about this release its that it only has the entries for whats already been released, personally i think people would be more positive if this book was combined with the release of flyers from the other races that currently have none, but i also think we are over thinking it, its only a book of rules which were previously available for free in WD.



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[Magpie_Oz]

And yet they do. You can buy every single pdf they have of the rules in a couple of nice hard bound books. However, they also give you the rules for free, either online or with the models, since their money comes from the models, not the rules, and it's a way better way to get people into the hobby as it keeps initial costs down so it's easier to get started.

I don't have a source on it, so this is given with a grain of salt, but supposedly WarMachine is actually outselling Warhammer. 40k is still the giant, and will be for quite some time I imagine, but it's not like Privateer Press is some small time fry pecking at GW's tail end. They seem to developed quite a following and profits as a result.

Which is why in my home town I cannot buy any PP products and they don't maintain a local shop specialising in just PP products. I can't even buy hard copies of the PP stuff because no one bothers to stock them, why would they when you can get it all free. Also why bother collecting the PP stuff when there is nowhere to play the game. For that reason there is ZERO interest yet the GW games are booming.

There maybe a following for PP but the just simply do not have the global reach that GW does and will find it very difficult to assail GW's market unless there is some massive shift in the gaming community. I don't see that happening, of the guys in my area no one is the slightest bit interested in anything other than WHFB or 40K and that is not from lack of looking at other game systems.

The main reason is that no other game system has the level of polish and support of GW and that counts.

As for getting guys started you can do that by playing an introductory game in the GW shop and then after that you can get a game off the other guys in the shop. I'd played 4 or 5 games before I'd even bought a mini when I first started out. Hands on with an OTT enthusiastic "shop guy" beats the shit out of anything you can download.

Personally i feel that print on demand or free pdfs just cheapens my hobby for me.

This.

I want my mini manufacturer to put as much effort into their products as I do. If I spend weeks painting my minis to the best standard I can reach, the last thing that I want is some shitty rulebook printed on my crappy bubble jet.

Fundamentally though, you are right. GW is a 1980s business model struggling to keep up with the times,

Or to put it another way a business model that has seen the company thrive since the 1980's and rise to totally dominate the market and continue to do so. I don't see a hell of a lot of struggling to be honest. I'd be very interested to see evidence that they are that goes beyond a suggestion that they are lying on their annual reports or the reduction in player numbers that could be attributed to 100 different causes outside GW, the recent GFC being prime amongst them.

but i also think we are over thinking it, its only a book of rules which were previously available for free in WD.

I guess that is why it is called a Compendium?
Honestly we whine if something comes out in WD and nowhere else (Sisters of battle) and we whine if WD stuff is put into a book.

Edit: for all the wrongness of it, the book has now sold out. Yep GW have got no idea how badly they are doing. Maybe if the stopped all that frantic running about and selling and trying to keep up with demand and had a bloody good look at themselves .......

 

[bitsandkits]

Wow it sold out quickly! seriously under estimated the demand me thinks, must have played it safe thinking that people wouldnt pick it up if they had bought the WD's, Just shows that even under these circumstances, direct only,english only, previously released,more than one army in the book and not all armies represented, GW can shift stock, nice little cheeky boost in Febuarys sales figures.



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[MadCowCrazy]

It's not just a compendium, there are rules in it which have never been released before. The Storm Raven rules for SM and BT. You have NO other choice than to buy it if you play either for those armies and want to use one, and we are all constantly reminded of how many ppl play smurfs. I guess the SM players get boned for once, they always get the most releases and now they have to pay an extra £20 to be able to use that £50 model in their army.

About the WD whine about SoB, there would be NO PROBLEM is GW simply released the rules in a pdf for download on their website. ALL problems would be solved as far as being able to get the rules, if you dont have access to internet then you should worry more about putting food on the table than buying expensive SoB models.

Of course it sold out, it sold out 2 days ago in fact. It would be interesting to see what army the people who bought it play, wouldn't surprise me if 50-70% of them are SM players as you have no other choice (except for pdf download) if you want to use the Storm Raven in your SM or BT army.

I hope this doesn't lead to the next step in the game being done similarly, like a compendium for ground models that use the large oval base. All SM, BA, BT, SW, DA can now use the Dread Knight, but to do so you have to buy this compendium that also contains the rules for all other models that use the large oval base. All you gotta do is pay the £20 and you can now use the Dread Knight in your army.

5 years from now there will be 30 compendiums out, all costing £20 in which they allow you to buy any unit in the game for any army, they just change the name from Venom Cannon to Dual Las Cannon for the SMs version of the Carnifex. Which is a mechanical Carnifex you paint in Ultramarine Blue and is totally unique to the SM because of the paint scheme.

 

[Doelago]

No iBookstore version of the damned book? Seems I will once again have to "acquire" my digital copy. *sigh*

 

[Magpie_Oz]

It's not just a compendium, there are rules in it which have never been released before. The Storm Raven rules for SM and BT. You have NO other choice than to buy it if you play either for those armies and want to use one, and we are all constantly reminded of how many ppl play smurfs. I guess the SM players get boned for once, they always get the most releases and now they have to pay an extra £20 to be able to use that £50 model in their army.

You have every choice. If you have the WD you can just update the appropriate bits, you can also chip in with your mates who own the same/other armies and all have access to the book. This is only as onerous a problem as you choose to make it.

About the WD whine about SoB, there would be NO PROBLEM is GW simply released the rules in a pdf for download on their website. ALL problems would be solved as far as being able to get the rules, if you dont have access to internet then you should worry more about putting food on the table than buying expensive SoB models.

If they did this then the Sisters of Battle would be condemned to a 2nd rate PDF Codex for ever. Who would bother buying a bound copy when the same stuff can be had for free? Why put money into a core product that you can't charge any money for?

Of course it sold out, it sold out 2 days ago in fact. It would be interesting to see what army the people who bought it play, wouldn't surprise me if 50-70% of them are SM players as you have no other choice (except for pdf download) if you want to use the Storm Raven in your SM or BT army.

Yeh there were 5 GW ninjas waiting for my son when we got home the other day. There was a bitter struggle while they attempted to drag him screaming onto the internet to buy the book for his Salamanders. Only my quick action to show the Ninjas that I have the WD supplement cut and pasted into the back of his Codex saved the day. Phew !

I hope this doesn't lead to the next step in the game being done similarly, like a compendium for ground models that use the large oval base. All SM, BA, BT, SW, DA can now use the Dread Knight, but to do so you have to buy this compendium that also contains the rules for all other models that use the large oval base. All you gotta do is pay the £20 and you can now use the Dread Knight in your army.

Not gunna happen is it.

The whole point of this book is that the flyers are out of step with the rest of the Codices so rather than reprint all of them, this compendium serves as a stop gap. Over time its contents will be absorbed into the main codex for each army and will become redundant. So if you don't want to buy it now just wait for your army's new book.

 

[MadCowCrazy]

Scans are out, I'm sure those who are interested in such things knows where to find them.

I dont have the WD with the rules so dont know if there are any changes in points costs.

Stormtalon Gunship 110Points
BS 4 11/11/11 2HP

Can change twin-linked heavy bolter for
Skyhammer missile launcher 15pts
Twin-linked lascannon 30pts
Typhoon missile launcher 35pts

Any change from the WD version?

Stormraven Gunship 200pts
BS 4 12/12/12 3HP

4 Storm strike missiles Range 72", S8 Ap2 -Concussive, One use only
Replace assault cannon with, plasma or lascannon for free
Heavy bolter for multi melta free, typhoon missile launcher 25pts
Side sponson hurricane bolters 30pts
Searchlight 1pt
Extra armour 5pts
Locator beacon 10pts

Blood Angel codex one has locator beacon at 15pts and extra armour at 15pts, same with the GK codex one (except the Locator beacon is called Teleport homer). GK one costs 205 because it has those special GK immunities.