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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #1
If a blood angels player came to the table without any blakc painted minis and declined to roll for death company, would you let him play?

Would him having a chaplain at the normal cost (but with no DC) change things?

What if he fielded terminators?

Is the death company self-balancing (you get an elite assautl team, but it costs you minis) or is it a balancer for the whole army (part of the tradeoff for having furious charge is that you could lose an expensive mini)?
 

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I'd actually encourage Blood Angels players to try it. The Death Company really should be a special character sort of unit, not a main part of the army list. I don't say that because I think they're broken-- quite the contrary-- but I think that the number of models that succumb is disproportionate to the number that fall to the Angel's Pain in the fluff. It'd be about right for the Flesh Tearers, but you have to figure that if the Blood Angels were losing eight to ten Space Marines to the Death Company alone every single engagement, the Chapter would be unable to replace its combat losses. They'd be in as bad shape as the Flesh Tearers, which are almost unable to operate due to the excessive rate of psychosis.

Before anyone suggests that I hate the Blood Angels, it's really quite the contrary. Blood Angels were my first army, I love them more than anything else in 40k-- I just wish their rules reflected the Chapter and emphasized their struggle, not encourage the players to do everything in their power to make as many of the most blessed of the Astartes fall to their passion.

It's part of why I use Traits instead of the Blood Angels codex. Remind me to post the fluff for my "successor" Chapter sometime. They've recieved very enthusiastic praise every time I post the background.
 

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blahblahblahblah
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I'd just tell him to use the normal space marine rules in that case, or roll for his stupid useless Death Company but have no models for them so they all die and I can laugh at his idiocy to take the worst chapter ever created HAHAHAHAHAHA, but they do have a nice color scheme lol
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #4
oooookaaayyy....

How about you have another go at that, only this time without impersonating a 12 year old with ADD?

If you don't like blood angels, that's fine, but post your opinion without the juvinile crap, whether you mean it or not.

Seriously, I can't tell if you're being ironic, or if you're trolling, or if you're just a preteen with a learning disability.

so, let's have a do-over, eh?
 

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blahblahblahblah
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Okay, all you have to do is read between the lines but whatever

1: Use normal space marines codex

2: Roll for death company as normal, but since there is no models to represent them they would die (hence WYSIWYG but everyone knows that rule) and also saying that death company are useless, which is true I have never seen a case where they actually DO anything

3: the only good thing about Blood angels is the color scheme

see its all there in between the ranting and taunting
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #6
There, was that so hard?
Next time leave out the ranting and taunting and people might start taking you seriously.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #7
Anybody else have an opinion?
Stella, is your call based on the opinion that BA are too powerful and the death company is needed as a game baalncer, blind adherance to the rules, or is it just because you dislike BA? I'm curious to hear what you think
 

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blahblahblahblah
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I believe DA to be a balancer really, there completely useless in my opinion, and therefor weaken more powerful units like assault marines and Terminators (especially terminators) so I prefer my enemy to take them.

also it is a little bit of following the rules, if you take death company, even without the models you should still roll for them, there your army, and if you cannot be bothered to have the correct stuff, then tuff you still roll for them, you chose that army so live with its consequences.

and also I really hate Blood Angels lol. (except the color) lol
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #9
I think a lot of people would disagree with the useless comment. They're hands down the best assault troops in the loyalist arsenal, and (if you're an abusive bastard) can be incredibly cheap. I could take a scout heavy army and foeld a DC that costs less, per model, than a tactical squad

What, in your opinion, makes the DC useless?

The only reason I'd consider a list without them is because I want to run a BA scout army and a) I don't want to be accused of cheesemongering, and b) a squad of super elite 3+ save troopers kind of goes against the scout theme.
 

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blahblahblahblah
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What in my opinion makes them useless?

I will tell you, I have fought The Death company many times, sometimes small squads, sometimes large, I have seen them run across jump across and ride across the field, then after all the threats of "haha my Death Company will wipe you out" I see them fall to the ground by Lasgun fire, and then when finally they charge, they falter, and get dragged down by guardsmen, stabbing them with Bayonet, There Chaplains usually put up a brave fight, but in the end he too falls, and casualties are a minimum.

that is why I believe them to be useless, they cannot break the heart and courage of a few good Guardsmen, with a knife on the end of a flashlight.
 

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Death company are pretty awesome for what you pay in my book. If the person didn't want to use a unit that BA have to have by the codex, then don't use the codex!! Simple as in my book. The only things that make BA different from codex marines, besides unit choices, is black rage and free fury charge.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #12
You were witnessing some bad luck, my friend. it's 5+ to wound with a lasgun, the marine gets a 3+ save against it, and if they fail that, it gets a 4+ feel no pain save. To see death company get whittled down by anything less than overwhealming lasgun fire is to see extreme bad luck in action. Likewise, 3-4 attacks each, at I 4-5, 3+ to hit (and reroll misses) with a 2 or 3+ to wound, against IG saves, unless the guy is dumb enough to charge against some knot of multiple squads there'sno way he;s going to get bogged down in assault unless he's insanely unlucky.

you said assault squads were better, but the DC has more attacks, better durability, is fearless and usually costs much less than an assault squad.

I won't go so far as to say the DC is broken or overpowered, but I really don;t think witnessing an incompetent/unlucky player qualifies you to call them useless. They;re a very good, cheap unit. The only time I;d call a deathc ompay useless is if you play without a chaplain and end up with a couple of lone berserkers who charge blindly and get avoided or killed. A good sized DC is always a good thing

Fallen Angel, while I can respect the strict "Play it the way your codex says or don't play with that codex" standpoint (rules are rules, after all), your last sentance is a bit lame. You may as well say "Except for all the tons of differences, they;re no different than codex"

Sure, they;re not as far off as space wolves, but the rage, unit choice and furious charge is a big difference. I would love to play a BA scoout army, but I don;t want a DC in it, even though they would be fantasticlaly useful (and cheap). Sure, I could play codex, but I;d lose furious charge, the chance for extra movement, and I;d need to go out and buy some more regular scouts

Anyhow, that said, I do understand the 'play it straight' philosophy, it;s how the rules work.

Anybody else?
 

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blahblahblahblah
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Galahad said:
I won't go so far as to say the DC is broken or overpowered, but I really don;t think witnessing an incompetent/unlucky player qualifies you to call them useless. They;re a very good, cheap unit. The only time I;d call a deathc ompay useless is if you play without a chaplain and end up with a couple of lone berserkers who charge blindly and get avoided or killed. A good sized DC is always a good thing
10 games in a row they were killed, with very little casualties actually received, thats more than bad luck lol, either that or all my guard have rabbits feet, four leaf clovers and all manner of lucky charms, or they all carry a ladder, so the enemy must go under it, hence bad luck lol
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #14
How many units are able to fire on and then assault the death company? If the guy is being a dumbass and charging his death company into a strongpoint without giving them any fire support, then yeah they;ll get shot up.

But they;d still fare better than an assault squad under the same circumstances. Nothing about the death company makes them more vulnerable to that sort of thing than any other unit. In fact, any other unit would get shot up worse. Thatndoesn;t make the death copmpany useless, it just makes trying to assault under those circumstances futile.

Replay the scenarios in your mind and substitute a regular assault squad for the DC. Can you honestly imagine another squad doing any better?
Just because I charge my tank towards a nest of lascannon squads and it gets blown up doesn;t make the tank useless, it just means I'm a retard.
 

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I dont believe BA to be useless, cuz any sensible player would not charge guardsmen but instead shred them with the Baal pred, or other assault weaponry and make them flee. Death company is more for killing an hq squads or elite choices such as terminators (at least thats were I have seen them do best). I do agree that blood angels are one of the best cc loyalist along with wolves and I dont consider them useless by any means, cc armies just use finesse.
But back to the original subject I would let them play with death company who cares really its just a game, half the people I play are still newbies and havent bought their armies yet which is fine with me as long as they show intention on buying models in the future.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Just so everyone knows, this thread was started before the new codex, so the actual question is now invalid and pointless.

While I appreciate new members (welcome aboard, Kain), especially those who use the search function...you *really* should pay attention to the dates before you reply. There's no rule against posting on old threads, so long as you can contribute something useful. But in a thread that was posted before the rules changed, it's really hard to come up with anything useful to add.

However, since it's back from the dead...

The new DC is technically optional, but you;re still forced to pay for the models (in the increased price of our units).

Would you allow a BA player who does not use the DC to field his squads at a discount (25 points less for tactical, devs, VAS, 15 less for assault) since there's no point in paying for models you're not taking?

Also Moved to Houserules
 

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and also saying that death company are useless, which is true I have never seen a case where they actually DO anything
i dissagree, ive killed entire squads of CSM with only four DC and a chaplain, ive managed too cripple an entire enemy flank with 6 DC and a chaplain. the people you played most likely had no idea how to use them, in the proper hands death company can be devastating
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #18
Remember, please that everything posted before just now is using OLD RULES, before DC got rending and the like, so let's just confine ourselves to the topic I brought up on this page. There's no point in arguing against posts made almost a year and a half ago.
 

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Hi Gal, thought I'd actually post on the active portion of this thread... :wink:

... since it's back from the dead...

The new DC is technically optional, but you;re still forced to pay for the models (in the increased price of our units).

Would you allow a BA player who does not use the DC to field his squads at a discount (25 points less for tactical, devs, VAS, 15 less for assault) since there's no point in paying for models you're not taking?
No, I don't think I would. (Really, this isn't true, because if I'm playtesting new strategies or houserules or playing narrative games, sometimes the "story" is more important than balancing points: but in a "meet some guy at GW who offers to take me on, we have a game" kinda situation, then no.)

If a player using Codex SM said "I'm fielding a SM army without Landspeeders and Attack bikes" I wouldn't say "oh OK then, you can have Rhinos for the same price as in Codex Chaos" and I think it's the same thing (it might not be, but I think so).

The 'list' is balanced across the whole army (at least, it's supposed to be), rather than unit by unit; all the player is doing is voluntarily giving up an advantage. That's what fluff players do all the time - forgoing tactical advantages for their own personal reasons. There's no reason to say "because you've given up an advantage you're allowed by your codex, have an advantage you're not allowed."

Hope you see where I'm coming from on this one.

 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #20
There's a difference, Orky, your hypothetical Codex SM player would still be *paying* for the speeders he decided not to take.

Blood Angels players are forced to pay for our 'free' Death Company models. Each and every squad that contributes to the DC (except terminators) costs 15-25 points more than it should.

5 marines with a vet sarge costs everyone else 90 points. It costs BA players 115
Those extra 25 points are for our "Free" DC marine that comes with the squad.

Frankly, I don't see any problem with it. If you're not going to use that unit, you should not be forced to pay for them. To do otherwise would be like saying "Alright, everyone has to pay for three Tornado landspeeders, but if you don't want to use them that's alright...but you have to play with 240 less points than everyone else."
 
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