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DE Talos and Reaver JBs, whats so wrong with them?

1155 Views 11 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  Warlock in Training
Okay, I love both the Talos and jetbikes as models and want to drop webways half way across the board and have Talos roll up with the enemy no place to run. Jet Bikes are a no brainer for harassing the flanks and contesting objectives if not running a GEQ unit off them.
So what the big deal why everyone says Ravagers and no Jetbikes, Raider Squads only? Every DE list I see is the exact same as the last, its like Dual Lash, PMs, and Oblits for CSM all over again.

Seriously no one has no success with these 2 units?
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Right ok.

The Talos has an Impressive T7 and 3 wounds and is protected by a good 3+ save. It's a meer 100 points. Those are all good things.
Now, it has a Random number of attacks, so it will either slaughter a whole unit of terminators, or it'll kill a guardsmen.
Why would you choose that over paying 15 more points, and you get a reliable, fast and most importantly, accurate vehicle that is caperble of bringdown any tank ingame or causing a huge dent on a MCs wound reserve? Pay 15 more points and you get a fast vehicle with 3 plasma cannons.
It's a no brainer. Ravagers are just 'too good' in comparison to the rest of the heavy support choices avaliable to the DE.

Jetbikes are another story. I run them at bigger games, 2k +.
They do all the things you said they did and more. Tool the Succubus up with a Punisher and you have a model with Initiative 6 and 3-4 str5 power weapon hits, not including the drug bonuses. Give him an Agoniser, and go MC hunting.
Give the 2 special weapon slots to Blasters, and you have a unit that can destroy tanks, harm MCs, blast bunkers etc etc. All for a reasonable cost. Bikes must come in units of 5 minimum however, IMO.

Webway bomb armies are very obvious from the get go. DE armies suffer from 'if you're going to do it this way, don't cut back'. Meaning that a webway bomb army MUST have 3 talos. It won't hit hard enough if you don't.
Your opponent will see this from your list and do everything to neuter your webway carrier. A lord with a shadow field is the safest carrier, but, your putting to much responsiblity on him. He doesn't do well being hit by 40 odd boltguns.

Talos have also suffered from the recent price drop, thus, increase in volume of both Missile and melta weaponry. Unlike Wraithlords who are only hurt 50% of the time, your hurt on 66% of the time. A unit has to slam a couple of missile into you then have an Attack bike or assault squad fry you with a melta weapon.

The Ravager is, imo, the most powerful unit ingame right now. Hideously under priced for it's insane damage output.
It's closest competitor is the Railhead, and to make one of those any good, you're looking at 160 points plus invested. Thats at least 50 more than the Ravager.
The Ravagers high damage output, cost efficiency, reliability and most importantly, diversity make it to good not to take.
For 345 points you get 3 Vehicles that will send a shudder through your opponents spine as he realises you can vaporise his tanks quicker than he can contemplate.
A Ravager with Dizzys means no TEQ or MEQ is safe, at all. Something that not many other units can claim to do.

Raider squads are just to versitile and reliable too. Although, like all DE units, paper thin, they have a low enough points cost to not be to worried about.
A 10 man raider squad with a blaster, splinter cannon, Sybarite with Poisoned blades and a raider costs less than 170 points. For that you get an Accurate unit that can either mow down infantry, bag a couple of TEQs or blast any tank to hell.
The only unit that can compete with this reliablity is the good old Sniper squad. 2 Dark lances, 10 men all for 100 points. Bargain.

It's odd how despite GW fucking up other armies, DE have remained with only one flaw, and thats them being out of date.
The codex isn't designed for the more intricate play of 5th ed. So most of their rules and units cut through the fancy rule book like a hot knife through butter.
5th Ed pushed a massive need to be Mech'd up and melta'd up. DE had NO CHOICE other than to be in raiders and carry lance weaponry, as if they weren't, you had no chance to win. So DE players have found themselves with armies that seem to withstand the test of time. As no matter what curveball GW throws, DE come out unmolestered.

Even overpowered (I hate the word tbh) armies like Space wolves have no hope against a dice favoured, well experienced DE player. As the current codex, unlike every other codex, says implicitly 'TAKE THIS KIND OF ARMY OTHERWISE YOU'RE FUCKED'.
Everyone says that DE have a steep learning curve, and it's true. The learning curve is that you need to find the 'Raider spam' army out for yourself, learn to use it properly and then you can't lose. As it's an army that will maul an opponent so badly that it'll be impossible for them to come out with any major advantage.

I've been playing DE since they first came back, 1997/8 is I believe. And I picked up my raider army within a year of playing with them. So I've seen several new Rulebook editions and haven't had to change my tactics once.
Even with the new emphasis on objectives, I always took 4-6 troop choices anyway...so not really a problem.

It'll be really interesting to see what GW do to the new codex. Hopefully add some varity to my one stringed bow of an army. I stopped playing with the DE simply because I had one tactic that pretty much garnered me a win. And you know you've won as you get to turn 3 and your opponent is at his own board edge with no tanks left at all.

Finished now ;)
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The biggest problem with a Talos is that it isn't a Ravager.
Basically summed up everything I said in a sentence.
Oh it works against lists like Tau gunlines, Green tide, Sea of Guardsmen etc.

Just with 5th, EVERY other lists apart from that usually revolves around 2 troop choices in Transports with the rest of the army fleshing out the wings.

Having a 'Mobile core' its the 5th Ed's legacy.

This neutralises what the Webway bomb does best, tying up as much of the opponents army in CC in 2 turns. A half good opponent will see the tactic straight away and spread out as fast as he can.
Keep them hidden and keep them moving.

A good DE player will hit you with everything all at once, and with DE's speed, it'll be turn 2, maybe even turn 1. So you have a turn to re-deploy or think very carefully about you're own setup.

Most DD players will 'cross over' upon attacking, so things will often end up on the opposite flank to which they deploy. A good unit to keep an eye on is the Archon if he is in a raider. He is a key indicator of the spear point in a raider rush.

Only problem is Archons w/ Incubi are so damn hard to stop in CC most players concentrate on taking him out. Or at the very least, his mobility.

Ravagers at their tiny points cost attract an awful lot of fire, but you have to bare in mind that the Raider also carries a Dark lance. So even if the DE lose all their Ravagers, all the raiders can still accomplish the job.

You run a massive risk against DE mobility when setting up. As you can either Set up against the board edge, and have no risk of being surrounded...but huge risk of being trapped against the board edge and forced to run...
you cna set up as far forward as you can to deny him huge field of movement. Thus controlling where he can move his units a little more...but run the risk of him getting 'over' and behind your line.

The army you play and the style of list will feature heavily on the way you deploy.

For example.
Right now I'm playing with Deathwing. So I have a tiny amount of Elite troops and some heavy tanks.

Against DE, I lose the effectiveness of my armoured support (AV14 being reduced to 12) and will be facing a high amount of AP2 weaponry (my 2k DE list has around 20 Dark lances).
I Don't have serious long range firepower.
I Don't have enough men to swamp him down.

So I would choose to deploy as far forward as I could.
My deathwing use alot of Assault Cannons. Every squad has one. And I use 2 Crusaders. So, this gives me a turn of maximum firepower (assuming he is within 24"). Crippling Raiders would be more important than sinking Ravagers. As I'm already assuming that the Crusaders will be destroyed. With no raiders, this will force his rank and fill into Range (24") simply to bring their own weapons to bare. Even with only AV12, 3 AV12 vehicles should take a turn to destroy. A turn where he isn't splatting terminators.

See my point?
To play DE you need to be aggressive. The best Defense is offense against the buggers. And by Offense, I don't mean Charge headlong at him. Thats what he want's. Where he DOESN'T want to be is around 12"-18" away on the receiving end of Bolters and the like.
If you charge straight at him, he WILL manuver around you. And the game will be over before turn 4.
Approach him and deny him good places to fly (aka, make sure you have plenty of firelanes covered), and you'll wrest control of the game from him.


there you are. Sorry to Digress.
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Why don't I just write a 'How to defeat Dark Eldar' Tactica instead of stealing your thread?

I don't know.

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