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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Recently decided to take Midnight Sun's advice and start thinking about lists using Azrael's Lion's Helm to protect a blob of Guard while still enabling Deathwing as Troops. At 2k I'm enjoying the lists I'm coming up with but more frequently these days I've been playing 1500 point games. Having a bit of a time slimming down the 500 points, but so far it pretty much looks like I can't use Knight Commander Pask at this level and still be happy with the number and quality of models on the table. This is where I'm at currently:

Azrael

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLLCs

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ CML, 4x TH/SS

Company Command Squad w/ 2x Flamers in a Chimera

Platoon Command Squad w/ 2x Flamers in a Chimera

20 man Infantry Platoon w/ 2x Flamers, 2x Autocannons

Manticore w/ Camo Netting

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 2x Servo Skulls


This list comes out at 1501. Azrael sits with the Inquisitor in the 20 man blob, for once no longer worried about cover with their 4++ saves. Manticore hides behind something safe and does it's thing, Deathwing squads utilize the pair of Servo Skulls to come in turn 1 ahead of the army. Flamer Chimeras support the Deathwing squads or drive out to an objective to camp out. Mortis puts down Fliers (provided there's one per turn I suppose) or tanks as necessary.

What are your thoughts, Heresy? I've never played this combo before but I see a lot of fun times to be had.
 

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Rattlehead
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Recently decided to take Midnight Sun's advice
Good man.

We know him, we love him.

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLLCs
Very nice indeed.

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ CML, 4x TH/SS
I'd probably go with CMLs on both units, but that's just me.

Company Command Squad w/ 2x Flamers in a Chimera

Platoon Command Squad w/ 2x Flamers in a Chimera
The Chimerae seem a little vulnerable as they're fairly easy targets, but I suppose they're still not as vulnerable as 5 T3 5+ dudes, so I think I can forgive it. If we need points though, these are the first to go.

20 man Infantry Platoon w/ 2x Flamers, 2x Autocannons
Oh look, a place where we can put points and drop Chimeras! I'd want at least 30, preferably 40 men in my Combined Squad. The more guys you have, the sweeter Azrael's deal gets. Drop both Chimeras and the Autocannons, bring 20 more Guardsmen and put Power Axes on your Sergeants.

Manticore w/ Camo Netting
Nice, but I think being out of Line of Sight is better than being in Stealth. I wouldn't bother with the Camo Netting.

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 2x Servo Skulls
While this is an excellent choice, it kills me to see the potential wasted from the Inquisition book. Take the Flamers off the Command Squad and Infantry Squads, and give this man the Liber Heresius at the very least. If you still have points after that, make him an Ordo Xenos and bring Rad Grenades - if you have to drop a Power Axe to do it, so be it, but as always be wary of just how much you're losing if you start cutting more than one Axe (cutting, axes, maybe? No? I'll get my coat). If you still have points, bring Psychotroke Grenades.

Apart from that, I really like the list. It's almost just like one I'd advise someone to build! Wait a minute...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It's almost just like one I'd advise someone to build! Wait a minute...
hahaha I needed to figure out how to make a suitable model for Azrael!



I'd probably go with CMLs on both units, but that's just me.
Need to get a second CML, until then I figure the PC is better than the AC or no heavy weapon.

The Chimerae seem a little vulnerable as they're fairly easy targets, but I suppose they're still not as vulnerable as 5 T3 5+ dudes, so I think I can forgive it. If we need points though, these are the first to go.
The Chimeras were definitely in there as filler, I figured two roaming Flamer squads/orders coming from a Tank would be beneficial. I'm down to drop them to increase the blob size, but I don't have any axes (save the two SM ones I'm modelling into my Death Company) so I'm kinda lost there. While I can easily make the rest of the changes until I have more axes (which I will) the decision to put them in will unfortunately be based on which one of my friends I will be facing with the list. One dude is hard up on WYSIWYG. The rest not so much.

Nice, but I think being out of Line of Sight is better than being in Stealth. I wouldn't bother with the Camo Netting.
This is my table.



As you can see, not much out of LoS here. Still think the Camo Netting is a waste? :laugh:

Take the Flamers off the Command Squad and Infantry Squads, and give this man the Liber Heresius at the very least. If you still have points after that, make him an Ordo Xenos and bring Rad Grenades
I typically do give him the LH (after I read that crucial "when enganged in a challenge" part on the Grimoire), I have just taken Ordo Malleus because it makes sense in my games from a fluff perspective.

Damn, now that I have started looking: how did you model axes on your Guard? I am not finding anything outside of the CSM and SM ranges, did you just use this one and chop chop?




Currently working on a list that incorporates this information.
 

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Rattlehead
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hahaha I needed to figure out how to make a suitable model for Azrael!

That's all kinds of awesome! :eek:k:

Need to get a second CML, until then I figure the PC is better than the AC or no heavy weapon.
Makes sense - they're really damn expensive on bits websites.

The Chimeras were definitely in there as filler, I figured two roaming Flamer squads/orders coming from a Tank would be beneficial. I'm down to drop them to increase the blob size, but I don't have any axes (save the two SM ones I'm modelling into my Death Company) so I'm kinda lost there. While I can easily make the rest of the changes until I have more axes (which I will) the decision to put them in will unfortunately be based on which one of my friends I will be facing with the list. One dude is hard up on WYSIWYG. The rest not so much.
Hmm. Axes aren't too expensive on Bits websites, but that's still annoying. The Flamer squads aren't really threatening enough with only two Flamers, and they're essentially suicide squads - you want a lot of damage output from a suicide squads, and these guys don't really have that.

This is my table.



As you can see, not much out of LoS here. Still think the Camo Netting is a waste? :laugh:
While that table is a. awesome and b. completely barren in the LOS blocking department, I still wouldn't bother with Camo Netting. If you're on the ground, a 6+ cover save isn't worth the points. If you're in the trenches, you're in 4+ or 3+ anyway, so Camo Netting seems to be wasteful.

I typically do give him the LH (after I read that crucial "when enganged in a challenge" part on the Grimoire), I have just taken Ordo Malleus because it makes sense in my games from a fluff perspective.
So call him an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, but use him as an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor. List him as 'Inquisitor'. Write down how many people notice that he's not Ordo Malleus and get back to me :)

Damn, now that I have started looking: how did you model axes on your Guard? I am not finding anything outside of the CSM and SM ranges, did you just use this one and chop chop?
Assault Marine axes if you have them, otherwise my group doesn't care about WYSIWYG as long as it isn't an entire army. I think CCWs on Guard look kind of stupid anyway, but if I had to go about converting Sergeants to have Axes I'd probably use an axe from Fantasy - probably the Free Company models, but maybe Marauders or the top half of an Empire Halberd. I think they're scaled better to Guardsmen, rather than having regular men lugging around Space Marine-sized weapons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That's all kinds of awesome!
Thanks dude, I think I spent more time GSing hair around the mohawk on the bare head than I did on the rest of the conversion. Balthazar even has a combi-plasma!

Makes sense - they're really damn expensive on bits websites.
Right?!

Hmm. Axes aren't too expensive on Bits websites, but that's still annoying. The Flamer squads aren't really threatening enough with only two Flamers, and they're essentially suicide squads - you want a lot of damage output from a suicide squads, and these guys don't really have that.
I wasn't ever going to really disembark them unless absolutely necessary. Two flamers can shoot out the top while the remaining three members can use either side of the lasgun array, not to mention the multi-laser and heavy bolter. Either way, admittedly points filler.

While that table is a. awesome and b. completely barren in the LOS blocking department, I still wouldn't bother with Camo Netting. If you're on the ground, a 6+ cover save isn't worth the points. If you're in the trenches, you're in 4+ or 3+ anyway, so Camo Netting seems to be wasteful.
hahaha the table's a lot of fun. There's something classic about having to use your own troops to shield your advance...you should see the blood bath that playing BA on this table turns into!

I see your point, 6+ is a total waste of time. Turning a 4+ into a 3+ on the other hand, well....I'm sure you know the difference between that save as you play both Guard and Marines. On a 4x4 board I have serious security issues with the Manticore, since it's on a damn Chimera chassis. Maybe that's why I want that Camo so bad.

So call him an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, but use him as an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor. List him as 'Inquisitor'. Write down how many people notice that he's not Ordo Malleus and get back to me
Valid. I am still getting used to grenades, it's something that my gaming group (myself very much included) always seems to forget.

I'll check out those axes, I have to do an order of TH/SS combos for the DW squads here in the coming weeks anyway so I don't see why I can't tack on a few fantasy axes to that bill. Any recommendations for bits sites? Typically I check Hoard o Bits or Bits and Kits for stuff, but am quite open to suggestion.
 

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I wasn't ever going to really disembark them unless absolutely necessary. Two flamers can shoot out the top while the remaining three members can use either side of the lasgun array, not to mention the multi-laser and heavy bolter. Either way, admittedly points filler.
Driving a 12/10/10 Chimera to within 8" people is usually a pretty bad idea. Ain't that hard to kill a Chimera in an assault.

hahaha the table's a lot of fun. There's something classic about having to use your own troops to shield your advance...you should see the blood bath that playing BA on this table turns into!
Agreed, I think it'd be pretty wicked to game on. I mean, Kustom Force Fields, who cares about cover?

I see your point, 6+ is a total waste of time. Turning a 4+ into a 3+ on the other hand, well....I'm sure you know the difference between that save as you play both Guard and Marines. On a 4x4 board I have serious security issues with the Manticore, since it's on a damn Chimera chassis. Maybe that's why I want that Camo so bad.
Actually, I play Deathwing and Orks, but let's not split hairs :victory:

Maybe you could do with a Fortification to hide your Manticore behind? If not, then a Void Shield Generator to help your backfield stuff could be helpful.

Valid. I am still getting used to grenades, it's something that my gaming group (myself very much included) always seems to forget.
Rad Grenades can't be thrown and don't give you the Offensive or Defensive grenade bonuses, so they pretty much don't follow any of the Grenade rules. But slapping your opponent with -1 Toughness in the first round of combat is so very sweet.

I'll check out those axes, I have to do an order of TH/SS combos for the DW squads here in the coming weeks anyway so I don't see why I can't tack on a few fantasy axes to that bill. Any recommendations for bits sites? Typically I check Hoard o Bits or Bits and Kits for stuff, but am quite open to suggestion.
Bits and Kits - usually I buy full kits from Gifts for Geeks and build up a bits box rather than buy individual bits, but if you *do* want individual bits, go to B&K. Sometimes you can't find what you're looking for because it's so popular that things go out of stock very quickly (Nemesis Dreadknight legs go almost instantly), but when you do get what you want you get very good service and delivery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Agreed, I think it'd be pretty wicked to game on. I mean, Kustom Force Fields, who cares about cover?
I'm going to build two sections of no man's land and make some vehicle debris out of plasticard one day in an attempt to have more LoS blocking things. It would be so very much fun to play against Orks on this table. A friend just started collecting them, hopefully that comes to fruition one day.

Maybe you could do with a Fortification to hide your Manticore behind?
I have an ADL, could use that. I feel like it would be best taken with no upgrades in this list, just the 50 point wall. Actually, that was perfect. Check it:

Azrael

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLLCs

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ CML, 4x TH/SS

Company Command Squad

Platoon Command Squad

30 man Infantry Platoon w/ 3x Flamers, 3x Power Axes

Manticore

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 3x Servo Skulls, Liber Heresius, Rad Grenades

Aegis Defense Line
Comes out to 1499. I miss the Autocannons and the ADL was something I was trying to avoid, but these changes seem crucial. I would have straight up hid the Manticore in the shadow of a bunker, but with the ADL I can keep it more protected and more accurate for its likely short life. Hopefully that will make up for losing the 6 Autocannon shots/turn. Much more Inquisitor fun, plus the big ass book my model has means something in-game.

Alternately I could drop the CCS and one Servo Skull for a Lord Commissar to add to the blob, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. The CCS bare just seems like a waste, at least the PCS is scoring. The CCS has some cool orders, but the blob has no heavy weapons and is Ld10 with a 4++ save.
 

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I meant a Bastion to hide you completely out of Line of Sight, really - you can already get a 4+ from the trench lines, and the Guardsmen are advancing so the Aegis Line is a little wasted. I'd almost want to drop the Aegis Line and add a fourth Infantry Squad, drop two Flamers and give them a Power Axe, but that's the Ork player speaking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Unfortunately there is not much cover from the trenches, they're sunk into the table and not wide enough for the Manticore to fit into. I might get a cover save if the unit shooting at me is firing from the opposing trench and has to look over the various craters, but it's nothing to count on. Only sure place for 25% obscurity is on top of the largest bunker...aside from using your own troops. As far as playing the ADL, I would be setting on an angle from my deployment zone into no man's land. Think deployment zone edge for Vanguard, though obviously keeping within my own table half. Even then it still kinda sucks. I'm thinking about trying to work in two LRBTs instead of the Manticore for the dual shot consistency and max survivability through AV 14/13/10....but it's tough making an additional 130 points room past just dropping the Manticore. It will cost much....Mortis down to TLAC, =I= back without kit, two identical PC DW squads....

Think it's worth it? Given that this list will specifically be played on that trench table. I'll be up against a Stormraven/Night Scythe combo, but no Heldrakes in terms of fliers.
 

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Unfortunately there is not much cover from the trenches, they're sunk into the table and not wide enough for the Manticore to fit into. I might get a cover save if the unit shooting at me is firing from the opposing trench and has to look over the various craters, but it's nothing to count on. Only sure place for 25% obscurity is on top of the largest bunker...aside from using your own troops. As far as playing the ADL, I would be setting on an angle from my deployment zone into no man's land. Think deployment zone edge for Vanguard, though obviously keeping within my own table half. Even then it still kinda sucks. I'm thinking about trying to work in two LRBTs instead of the Manticore for the dual shot consistency and max survivability through AV 14/13/10....but it's tough making an additional 130 points room past just dropping the Manticore. It will cost much....Mortis down to TLAC, =I= back without kit, two identical PC DW squads....
I don't think you can afford to bring two LRBTs over the Manticore and still have power in the rest of the list.

Think it's worth it? Given that this list will specifically be played on that trench table. I'll be up against a Stormraven/Night Scythe combo, but no Heldrakes in terms of fliers.
You should be fine - the Mortis has a perfectly reasonable chance against the Stormraven with Interceptor, and Night Scythes are pretty ignorable until you reach turns four and five.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I don't think you can afford to bring two LRBTs over the Manticore and still have power in the rest of the list.
It's a steep price, for sure. I've got a few good ideas, going to try playing it with the ADL, 4th IP, and the dual LRBT's and see which one takes. The LRBT list is as follows:

Azrael

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLACs

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Company Command Squad

Platoon Command Squad

30 man Infantry Platoon w/ 3x Flamers, 3x Power Axes

2x Leman Russ Battle Tanks

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 2x Servo Skulls
Just doesn't make me feel as good, but the two LRBT's will be a hell of a lot harder to deal with over the Manticore. The Mortis is less effective against the SR with S7, but can put larger holes in squads. I will just have to wait on the SR to go into hover mode to drop out whatever GK nasties are inside to deal with it.

Night Scythes are pretty ignorable until you reach turns four and five
Why are they less ignorable in T4-5? I find on a 4x4 table it's tricky to navigate and stay effective with Fliers that lack Hover.
 

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Just doesn't make me feel as good, but the two LRBT's will be a hell of a lot harder to deal with over the Manticore. The Mortis is less effective against the SR with S7, but can put larger holes in squads. I will just have to wait on the SR to go into hover mode to drop out whatever GK nasties are inside to deal with it.
Yuck, removing Guardsmen makes me very unhappy - Azrael gets less and less worth it the more Guardsmen you remove. Your anti-flyer is now massively decreased as two Twin-Linked Autocannons are no way near up to the task of killing a Stormraven, and the Mortis will be the first thing it kills with that Multi-Melta. You're also wanting in the anti-armour department for ground targets.

I like the 40-Guard/ADL list more, personally.

Why are they less ignorable in T4-5? I find on a 4x4 table it's tricky to navigate and stay effective with Fliers that lack Hover.
Because Necron Warriors can just walk into and out of a Night Scythe as if it were a ground-based Open Topped transport, so if you leave it alive until T5/6 then you'll find that you suffer a 6VP shift as he takes an objective from you with essentially non-Scattering troops choices. The Night Scythe, on it's own, is kind of bad. It's the Invasion Beams and it's position as Dedicated Transport that are dangerous.
 

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Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 2x Servo Skulls
Seriously, put the Rad Grenades back in their for the 30 man blob: -1 T to your opponent in close combat for 1 round is invaluable to a blob for a poultry 15pts. I'd say put the Liber Heresis back in their too while you're at it: A scouting blob is definitely nice, but gifting them Counter-Attack to boot? The only other units that can give them this is an attached allied Rune Priest or ol' Straken: Both pricey. So again, 15pts is an absolute steal for the boon it can give to them.
And Azrael leading them for the 4++. Now that's just mean.

I think I agree with Midnight on the Manticore though; I auto-include a Manticore in every list, because it has served me so well throughout 5th, 6th and I am sure now with the new codex it will continue to please me: It can just do so much (anti-vehicle especially), and is often not destroyed as quickly as you'd think plopped in the rear.
That said, I do see how on that board (nice btw, I dig some trench warfare especially when it involves the Guard) you would be worried though, for lack of cover...And with the new reduced prices for the Russ' it is all to tempting to include them in lists (they seem to be creeping into all my new lists it would seem). Definitely not a bad choice.

Edit: And yes, big blobs are cool (I am an incredibly biased blob guard player though): 40-man blob = win. If I ever have points left over I will always pump it into more guardsmen = bigger blobs if possible. Tanks and Artillery are fun and all well and good. But I have always found blobs are the ones who make the difference and win you games (and I just like the theme and concept behind blob guard...feels more grim dark).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I like the 40-Guard/ADL list more, personally.
....the one that I haven't posted in this thread? :wink:

Every list but the first has involved a 30 man blob, even the one with the ADL. In that list, to get the 40 man blob I would have to drop the ADL and a PA (EDIT: either that or Rad Grenades) from one of the IPs leaving me with 2 PAs in a blob of 40...which makes me want to drop the two CCWs for HWTs in the Platoons.

I very much agree with the Mortis. It's TLLC or bust I think and I'm not about to discard TH/SSs or heavy weapons from the DW squads to make the room.

I think the ADL list is my best bet as well, even if it only has 30 Guardsmen. The LRBTs are too expensive to run with Azrael and the DW at this level, and will have to come back into play at the 2k mark. That's where I'd be able to increase the blob size as well, though I'm actually not too excited about the time that movement phase will take...I'm used to at most 12 man squads and not too many of them with marines.

The Night Scythe, on it's own, is kind of bad. It's the Invasion Beams and it's position as Dedicated Transport that are dangerous.
Quite a good point, and since it's actually my Necron army I'm facing (in conjunction with my GK allies- dude needs a transport case for his CSM) that was something I am thankfully aware of. I just gotta remember in-game that if it moves more than 20" whatever unit is disembarking is firing Snap Shots. Glad to hear that there wasn't something else that I didn't know about though!
 

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Seriously, put the Rad Grenades back in their for the 30 man blob: -1 T to your opponent in close combat for 1 round is invaluable to a blob for a poultry 15pts. I'd say put the Liber Heresis back in their too while you're at it: A scouting blob is definitely nice, but gifting them Counter-Attack to boot? The only other units that can give them this is an attached allied Rune Priest or ol' Straken: Both pricey. So again, 15pts is an absolute steal for the boon it can give to them..
Counter-Attack is even more exclusive than that - it's not a transferable rule, so a Space Wolf character doesn't give it. But no doubt, Liber Heresius is brilliant. 15pts for Scout alone is tempting.

It's a shame Tome of Vethric is so much worse - it had a lot of potential with the whole 'it changes depending on your opponent' mechanic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for the input, Straken. Between the advice I'm getting from two of you I think this is the list right here:

Azrael

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLLCs

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ CML, 4x TH/SS

Company Command Squad

Platoon Command Squad

30 man Infantry Platoon w/ 3x Flamers, 3x Power Axes

Manticore

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 3x Servo Skulls, Liber Heresius, Rad Grenades

Aegis Defense Line

With the potential option of dropping the ADL and one Servo Skull to switch the blob up to 40 men strong. The 4th IP added would have a Flamer upgrade and a standard sergeant. Still, there would be 3 PAs in a 40 man blob and they have 4 flamers for Overwatch. Actually I just straight up like that more.

Azrael

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLLCs

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ CML, 4x TH/SS

Company Command Squad

Platoon Command Squad

40 man Infantry Platoon w/ 4x Flamers, 3x Power Axes

Manticore

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 2x Servo Skulls, Liber Heresius, Rad Grenades



...nothing like some points nudging, eh boys?
 

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Azrael

Mortis Dreadnought w/ TLLCs

Deathwing Squad w/ PC, 3x TH/SS

Deathwing Squad w/ CML, 4x TH/SS

Company Command Squad

Platoon Command Squad

30 man Infantry Platoon w/ 3x Flamers, 3x Power Axes

Manticore

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ Psyker upgrade, Force Sword, 3x Servo Skulls, Liber Heresius, Rad Grenades

Aegis Defense Line
:eek:k:
 

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I look forward to your report lord commander Ntaw. May the emperor protect. And try not to drink too much...Makes moving blobs tricky. :victory:
 
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