[DeusMortemEst]

Ok, here are a few examples:

Codex Rhino

-50 pts.
-Has no upgrades whatsoever.

Dark Angels Rhino:

-35 pts
- Are eqipped with a storm bolter, smoke launchers and searchlight.

They both have the same armour.

Codex Predator (with autocannon and no side sponsons) - 100 pts.

Dark Angels Predator (ditto, as well as smoke launcers and a searchlight) - 70pts.

The codex veterans originally costs 18 pts per model, but only has one attack and leadership 8. They can, however, take terminator honours for 10 pts per model. The Dark Angels veterans cost 20 pts each, but have the terminator honours benefit included.

That means, they are 8 points cheaper than regular veterans, but just as good. Moreover, a Dark Angels veteran squad can be equipped with a maximum 3 power weapons/power fists/plasma pistols/storm bolters/combi volters/ in ADDITION to a special weapon and heavy weapon, while the codex veterans can have a maximum of 3 (because the sergeant is given it from the armoury) EXCLUDING this.

Oh, and they can take terminators as a troop choice if they just include a special chahacter.

Is it just me, or is this slightly unfair?

And aslo, has this uber-whateverit'scalled happened to other chapters who've gotten codexes on their own?

Great thing that I'm using the Dark Angels army list! Come over to the dark side, anyone?

 

[Magin Chao]

I guess its made up in troop restrictions, like scouts.

 

[Galahad]

Well, if you;re going to bring up Death Wing, you should compare new DA to OLD DA...where you didn't have to take a special character, and you could have a pair of assault cannons in each squad, etc.

All in all, new-wave Marines (DA, BA, CSM) have more gear (Don't forget your free krak and frag grenades), generally lower costs, but also fewer options, and higher prices on popular choices.

old marines: 15 point powerfists, 5 point plaspistols, super-cheap and insanely effective 6-man las/plas squads, cheap AC tornado speeders.

Son;t get me wrong, I like (most) of the changes, and the direction that things are headed, but it;s not a one-sided orgasm of awesome.

The new wave are more balanced, take it for what it;s worth. Things that sucked are better, things that were awesome now suck just a little bit more.

 

[DeusMortemEst]

Well, if you;re going to bring up Death Wing, you should compare new DA to OLD DA...where you didn't have to take a special character, and you could have a pair of assault cannons in each squad, etc.

All in all, new-wave Marines (DA, BA, CSM) have more gear (Don't forget your free krak and frag grenades), generally lower costs, but also fewer options, and higher prices on popular choices.

old marines: 15 point powerfists, 5 point plaspistols, super-cheap and insanely effective 6-man las/plas squads, cheap AC tornado speeders.

Son;t get me wrong, I like (most) of the changes, and the direction that things are headed, but it;s not a one-sided orgasm of awesome.

The new wave are more balanced, take it for what it;s worth. Things that sucked are better, things that were awesome now suck just a little bit more.

Yeah, I guess. But a DA force fighting aganist a codex force would probably have a big andvantage, right?

 

[Galahad]

Really depends upon the construction of both armies.

It's a lot harder to 'twink' the new style marines, meanwhile the old Codex Space Marines remains an unbridled cheesefest, waiting to be unleashed.

Proper abuse of the traits system, combined with abusive composition choices (small las/plas squads, lots of cheap AC speeders), and good old-fashioned drop-pod spam can make up for free smoke launchers PDQ

New DA is a good list, and if properly maximized, can put up a really good fight (though I think new Chaos marines or BA are stronger), but it's easier to come up with a powerful C:SM list. So it takes a good player to make a powerful DA list, it doesn;t take much talent to come up with an equally powerful C:SM list.

But just you wait...they;ll come around and get their codex changed soon enough.

 

[Asmodai]

I agree with Galahad.

Dark Angels have a number of advantages over regular Codex Marines - but mainly in units that aren't fielded that often (who fields Veterans with Terminator Honours, seriously?). The reduction in the points of Predator Annihilators and Rhinos is fair considering that they're rarely seen units and the new points value is more in keeping with their actual effectiveness on the field.

Regular Marines have 6 man Las/Plas Squads, 2 weapons in Terminator Squads, cheaper Predator Annihilators, cheaper Landspeeder Tornados, cheaper Dreadnoughts. If you add Traits in you get Furious Charge, 6 Devastator Squads, 6x Dreadnought 3x Landspeeder Assault Cannon spam, etc., etc.

A well-built SAFH Space Marine list is one of the most powerful lists in the game. Dark Angels really don't have a cookie-cutter tournament build.

What the Dark Angels Codex excels in is internal balance. In the Space Marine list there are a lot of no-brainer choices and a lot of stuff that competitive players wouldn't touch if they were drunk. In Dark Angels the choice between units is less obvious. The Annihilator pattern Predator is a lot pricier than the Destructor, but it has Lascannons that are hard to find elsewhere. At 100 points, the Landspeeder Tornado isn't clearly superior to a Bike Squadron. Dark Angels isn't perfect, but it's likely GW's best balanced Codex yet in terms of being internally consistent.

I've also found that with Combat Squads, more balanced force composition, stricter adherence to the fluff of Codex Astartes, and the like that I've had more fun with my Dark Angels in the past year than I ever did in the decade preceding whether using the old DA book or just Codex: Space Marines. It's not because they're more powerful, but rather they're much more characterful.

So don't despair. If you lose to Dark Angels when you play Codex Marines, it's not because they have a more powerful army list. The latest rumours are that Space Wolves in the pipeline for late 2008 or early-mid 2009, and if 5th edition comes out, surely a new Space Marine Codex would come along with it. Personally, I think that once those books are updated to the Dark Angel's format 40K will be a much more enjoyable game.

 

[CATzeentch]

Overall the Darkangels are cheaper than dex marines. However, the upgrades like extra armour, twin-linked Lascannon and so on are a lot more and eventuall add up to be the same or a little bit more than Dex

 

[torealis]

Galahad's got it pegged. plus i love the phrase 'one sided orgasm'.

 

[Jadow]

If your a Dark Angels player you should know how all of this balances out, no more min/max, or squads in sizes different than 5 and 10, basically the min/max tacs and 8 man devs, movement of scouts to the elites section (no clue why, they are just learning to be marines and they are all of a sudden elite! um no, not fluffy at all) no more duel heavy weapons in DW termie squads, DW aren't able to make squads bigger than 5 w/o IC and that makes our Crusader cry when its not filled with DW CC goodiness to max, mandatory HQ for DW as troops, loss of our beloved Land Raiders and attached dedicated transport ... the new Codex definitely gives and takes to a whole new type of army compared to the DA of old. Well the DW side of things anyways.

 

[CATzeentch]

Ravenwing kicks ass, but why don't they have skilled rider. Aren't they supposed to be the most skilled riders in the Imperium?

 

[DeusMortemEst]

Yeah, ok, I got it.

Thanks a lot, guys! :victory:

 

[Engelus]

the way I see it is that one simply can't remake all the space marine codices all at once (similar to walking into Mordor its suicide) it would take too many man hours, with too little sales inbetween, and when the public got them all, there would be mass confusion and craziness about what to buy and not buy, people would get frustrated at the newly required models not showing up shortly after, and an uprising would follow leading to an age of chaos and the fall of humanity.

all the dexes will get this treatment, personally I am surprised that vanilla marines werent first.

although, it would be nice if they faq'd some of these features to all lists for the time being. like cheaper rhinos for example.

 

[Hespithe]

All I can say is this...

I really like the DA codex.

 

[Katie Drake]

Don't have much to add on the original topic, but I must say that it's really nice to see so much optimisim in regards to the Dark Angels Codex. On every other board it seems like people are complaining about how badly it sucks.

 

[darkane]

oh sure, lets make the army with the ridiculous armor save and widest variety of weapons cheaper! hooray! what the heck do the space marines think they are? Shamans? :laugh::wink:

 

[RPD_Tyrant]

Ravenwing kicks ass, but why don't they have skilled rider. Aren't they supposed to be the most skilled riders in the Imperium?

Just like BA's are suppose to be crazy and charge often, yet no Furious charge exect on Death company :shok:

 

[Engelus]

Just like BA's are suppose to be crazy and charge often, yet no Furious charge exect on Death company :shok:

especially when you take into consideration the harlequins, which have more special skills than most armies

 

[RPD_Tyrant]

especially when you take into consideration the harlequins, which have more special skills than most armies

I forgot about that :shok:

 

[Galahad]

In regards to the optimism, a lot of it comes from perspective.
Out of the blue your codex gets a bunch of weird, arbitrary changes and it's scary and confusing. But now BA and CSM codices come out and you can see it's part of a new wave, meant to be viewed within its own context.

As to Scouts being moved to Elites...

Remember that this is a game. Some units are put into certain categories for game mechanics purposes.

Scouts have special weapons and equipment not available to anyone else. They have special skills and capabilities no other unit possesses, and there are less of them than tactical marines. Special skills, special weapons, less availability...that doesn;t sound like something you should be abl;e to make a whole army out of. That;s a special squad.

Well, we don;t have a "Special Squad" FoC slot, we have Elites.

Coinsider Eldar Dire Avengers.
Dire Avengers are aspect warriors, with every bit as much training and respect and power as any of the other aspect temples. But even though in reality they would be considered elite, they are filed under troops because their abilities are unspecialized and there are lots of them available.

Likewise, Dark Reapers are Aspect Warriors, elite, specially trained units with the same level of training and status as other Aspect Warriors, but their heavy weaponry makes them a HS unit for game mechanics reasons.

Scouts were moved to Elites for good reason.
Yes, it takes away some Troops options, but it puts a unit of specially equipped, specially trained, specially armed, narrowly focused troopers into the same category as other mission specialists. Troops are meant to be numerous and generalized. Scouts are neither.

I can understand why it's a cause for complaint. SM are lacking in troops options and overfull on elites, meanwhile Scouts were a low-cost, tactically useful way to buy out your mandatory 2 troops slots. Who wouldn't rather have an infiltrating assault squad, or a Missile Launcher that can start the game with a shot into someone''s side armor than a handful of expensive guys in a flimsy transport?

But if you think of Elites as "Mission Specialists" rather than "Hardened Veterans" then scouts are a perfect fit for the category.

They certainly shouldn't be troops. You want un-fluffy, a Scout Army is un-fluffy. Who would make untested novices the backbone for their entire force? Who fields trainees without regular troopers around to advise and support them?

Scouts as troops was awesome, but didn't make a lot of sense if you really thought about it (I always felt Scouts should have been Fast Attack, myself...everyone else's scouts are).

Scouts as Elites sucks, but really does make sense if you stop to think about it. In almost every other army, the only infiltrating units are Elites. Stealth Suits, Striking Scorpions, Chosen, Kommandos, Storm Troopers and Hardened Vets, etc, etc.

There are a couple exceptions, but by and large, your infiltrating group of badass ninja motherfuckers is almost always an Elites choice

 

[Asmodai]

Scouts make sense for a scouting mission. A reasonable opponent probably wouldn't object to you fielding them as troops in a Combat Patrol mission. There's also Apocalypse for those people really wanting to field a million and one scouts.

The change really doesn't effect me since I rarely fill my Elites slots (and keep in mind that Techmarines don't take up a slot for Dark Angels), and I always field two or more Tactical Squads anyway.

@Katie: You're right. One of the reason why I'm spending more time on here than other forums lately is that it does seem to have a more positive tone.