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Discussion Starter #1
*disclaimer*
I will include models and numbers of models but this is not an army list thread.. I'm just trying to understand how to shove the models I have into detachments/formations or whatever so I'm not looking for any tips for what models I should have etc.
*/disclaimer*


All those months later I'm still trying to understand the whole Detachment and Formation thing.. I kinda took an hiatus from 40K but had to buy the new DA codex so I'm trying to understand things. Even the WH40K rulebook confuses me so I hope you can help me!

What is the difference between Formations and Detachments?

Thanks in advance for your help - even if you don't have the new DA codex helping me with understand how Detachments and Formations work and differ would be much appreciated!

I have models for:
1 Sammel on Sableclaw
1 Librarian Biker
12 Bikers
2 Assault Bikes
2 Land Speeders
10 Deathwing Knights

Now then.. reading the codex I see I can make 2 Ravenwing Attack Squadrons from say, 2 'formations' of 3 bikers, 1 Assault Bike, and 1 Land Speeder.

How does that go into a detachment?

Obviously I'd be going for the Ravenwing Strike Force - how do the formations fit in there if at all? Does one Formation count as 1 Fast Attack? Or would I have to get the 2 Formations, then make a Detachment from Sammael, and the two other Bike Squads?

The Librarian Biker will be left out because he doesn't have the Ravenwing rule..

Where would my Deathwing Knights will go then? I can make a secondary Detachment Deathwing Strike Force? I can include 2 units of 5 Deathwing Knights and would then have to pick another HQ choice with the Deathwing rule right?

I'm just trying to understand those rules. Obviously this army would be Battleforged right?


Thanks!
 

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What is the difference between Formations and Detachments?
From my understanding (without direct BRB quotes) a formation is a type of detachment, often with more specific unit choices and greatly varying in sizes. A battle forged army is entirely made up of detachments or formations provided their minimum unit requirements are met.

Now then.. reading the codex I see I can make 2 Ravenwing Attack Squadrons from say, 2 'formations' of 3 bikers, 1 Assault Bike, and 1 Land Speeder.

How does that go into a detachment?
It doesn't, it's two separate detachments unto themselves that are small enough in terms of points cost that you can include more formations in your army on top of them.

Or would I have to get the 2 Formations, then make a Detachment from Sammael, and the two other Bike Squads?
This is correct.

The Librarian Biker will be left out because he doesn't have the Ravenwing rule..
A massive oversight by GW, in my opinion.

Where would my Deathwing Knights will go then?
The Ravenwing Strike Force has one optional Elites selection, or your idea works too. Space to take that Libby HQ on bike and have him join up with a squad.

Obviously this army would be Battleforged right?
Everything you're saying points to you playing a forged army.

Hope this helps :drinks:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It really has, thanks so much!

So I could take 2 formations, 1 RW Detachment, 1 DW Detachment and then I can also take 1 Allied Detachment right?

And these allied detachments have to fit with either a detachment, formation or the normal 1 HQ, 2 troops FoC?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
And another question I have, which is now more in regards to the DA codex... how is there a restriction on the Ravenwing Strike Force for all the units having the RW rule if they let you get 3 Heavy Support units?
 

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So I could take 2 formations, 1 RW Detachment, 1 DW Detachment and then I can also take 1 Allied Detachment right?

And these allied detachments have to fit with either a detachment, formation or the normal 1 HQ, 2 troops FoC?
Yes. The rules for an allied detachment are in the BRB, compulsory 1 HQ 1 Troops, optional 1 Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, Troop selection. I don't think you can take an allied detachment if the faction is the same as your primary detachment (which would likely be your RW one, for Sammael's warlord trait if it's any good), but you can take another combined arms detachment if you want to take two Troops and an HQ. You could sneak some scouts with locator beacons in and attach your libby on a bike HQ to a squad from a formation/detachment.

how is there a restriction on the Ravenwing Strike Force for all the units having the RW rule if they let you get 3 Heavy Support units?
lol. You expected GW to proofread a DA codex before releasing it?

From before, I'm not sure why I said you could take DWK in a RW strike force. That is silly and they don't have the RW rule. I'd wager that elites slot is for a RW command squad.
 

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Vengeance Landspeeders are Heavy Support. At least they were last edition.

I'm going to basically summarize what ntaw said, since he knows his stuff.

Detachment: A type of Force Org Chart.
Formation: A type of Detachment where most of the options are already made for you.
Battleforged Army: As many Detachments and/or Formations you can fit in your points without going outside of the Force Org Charts for each.

The Ravenwing Detachment can do the following:

HQ: Sammael
Elite: RW Command Squad
FA: Nephilim Flier, Dark Talon Flier, Bike Squad, Attack Bike Squad, Landspeeder, Darkshroud
Heavy: Land Speeder Vengeance

None of the above, if taken as part of the Attack Squad, can be used in another Detachment. But as long as you run Sammael + 2 of those Fast Attacks, you can also use other Formations, such as the Silence Squadron (the 3 fliers), the Support Squadron (3 Speeders + Vengeance/Darkshroud) or Attack Squadrons (1 bike squad + optional attack bike + speeder).
 

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Vengeance Landspeeders are Heavy Support. At least they were last edition.
No shit, they are. They're riiight next to black knights in the pictu...er...page layout, I barely noticed the little unit designation symbol difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
No shit, they are. They're riiight next to black knights in the pictu...er...page layout, I barely noticed the little unit designation symbol difference.
Seriously is it that hard to proof read a codex? You know before it's printed... you can spend an hour on it and you'd find all the mistakes...

Thanks for all the help guys!

ntaw I was thinking of getting that Space Marine Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort Formation - would that work as an Allied Detachment?
 

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It would not work as an Allied Detachment, because an Allied Detachment is specifically one HQ, 1-2 Troops and 0-1 FA, Elite and Heavy.

But it could be an ally in your army. As i said, you can add as many different detachments into your army as you can fit in the points (or the tournament allows).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
It would not work as an Allied Detachment, because an Allied Detachment is specifically one HQ, 1-2 Troops and 0-1 FA, Elite and Heavy.

But it could be an ally in your army. As i said, you can add as many different detachments into your army as you can fit in the points (or the tournament allows).
What do you mean by just 'ally'? Are there any differences between what an Ally will give you, and an Allied Detachment give you?
 

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Well, think about it like you did with your list you posted in the other thread.

You had a Ravenwing Strike Force, and multiple Ravenwing Attack Squadrons.

Technically, each formation or detachment that you're using is ALLIED with each other.

So right now, your army is this:

Ravenwing Strike Force DETACHMENT (Primary Detachment).
Ravenwing Attack Squadron FORMATION DETACHMENT (ally).
Ravenwing Attack Squadron FORMATION DETACHMENT (ally).

Yes, these are all the same codex and book, so the fact that their allies are lost in the fact that they'er all one big happy family. But at the very core of the Detachment/Formation system, that's what happens.

Now the ALLIED DETACHMENT is a very specific rules set from the main rule book. It says you can have 1 HQ, 1-2 Troops, and then 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Fast, and 0-1 Heavy. It can't be from the same faction as your Primary Detachment.

The Siegebreaker Cohort that you mentioned can't be an ALLIED DETACHMENT, because it has its own rules and it's own very specific selections to take; no models can ever be part of two different Formations at the same time (unless we're talking something like the Lion's Blade).

So instead, you could have something like this.

Ravenwing Strike Force DETACHMENT (Primary Detachment).
Ravenwing Attack Squadron FORMATION DETACHMENT (ally).
Siegebreaker Cohort FORMATION DETACHMENT (ally).

or

Ravenwing Strike Force DETACHMENT (Primary Detachment).
Ravenwing Attack Squadron FORMATION DETACHMENT (ally).
White Scar ALLIED DETACHMENT (ally).

The issue that a lot of people get caught up in is that ALLIED DETACHMENT and 'ally' share a word, so people assume it's the same. Happens a LOT with Tau Empire and Farsight.

And to answer your question specifically! Allies in general simply are two parts of your army, and they interact based on the Matrix in the main rule book. General rule of thumb is that the Imperium Branches, especially marines, treat each other as Battle Brothers, which mean they may as well be one massive army. The Allied Detachment gives you almost nothing, except a way to get in another army that might not have any of its own formations yet, in just a small scoop (as few as one troop and hq).
 

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An Allied Detachment gives you Objective Secured on your Troops selections, and an allied Formation will give the units in that Formation whatever rules that Formation states. In either case, there are different unit requirements.

:laugh: that was fun to type.

EDIT: capitalized for @MidnightSun's scrutiny. Feel all warm and fuzzy inside yet?
 

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EDIT: capitalized for @MidnightSun's scrutiny. Feel all warm and fuzzy inside yet?
No idea if this is an in joke or an attempt at humour, but it was a valid comment for the sake of a rules question in a rules discussion on a rules forum. Maybe lay off the attitude, or perhaps thank him for providing correct information pertinent to the discussion.

Or, you know, pull on big boy pants and ignore it?



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Discussion Starter #16
I agree with Vaz, let's not get into a conflict over grammar etc.

I got all my answers, thank you very much everyone! :)
 

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:laugh: me including 'feeling fuzzy inside' didn't tip you off to it being a joke, eh? @Vaz, chill out. MS looks like he took it for what it was and I did edit my post to include the appropirate grammar.
 
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