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YEAH, forgot that...

If it just weren't bolters, I might still be allowed to moan and bitch...
Darn, now I can't complain about any thing.

On the serious side, this is kind of cool. We now get to shoot and assault.
Hey at least it is something ;)
 

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Well i just think we will have to wait and see what sort of list's people come up with. I feel a bit sorry for GW. If they had created a monster and the list was more powerful than an IW list could be they would be slated! But because it's not they get slated! It's a no win situation.

IMHO ALL models should come with basic issue equipment as standard. So it's right that DA come with bolt pistols and grenades too. Combat Squads is HOW marines are supposed to work. IMO vanilla marines should have this rule too. Ass cannons are to powerful when used on mass, and tornadoes for 80pts is taking the piss! Personally i think 90pts would have been about right but perhaps 100pts is going a bit steep!

Armoured assault looks like the way to go, this backed up by raven/deathwing. I just think people have to learn to use the army in a different way to normal marines. Once all the other list are updated/toned down i think everything will look ok.

Perhaps (with any luck) this will signal the beginning of the end for powergamers the world over! Three cheers!

MarzM :mrgreen:
 

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It certainly won't. There will always be people whose need to win is so overwhelming that no sacrifice is too little. They're just getting cranky now because they have to change tactics.
 

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I tried a basic SM list using the DA rumours as a model, 5/10 man squads, frag and krak taken on all models. etc.

The list actually worked surprisingly well. I even found myself getting to use the Krak grenades. :shock:

It gave new Eldar and Chaos a run for their money which to be honest, i was rather shocked about.

having multiple 5 man units may be risky with torrent, but the sheer spread of enemy targets that you can use your heavies on more than makes up for it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
>> Been reading comments about the cheaper plasma cannon, but others being slightly more expensive. NOw , aren't DA suppossed to be plama specialists? Maybe made cannon cheaper to reflect this? Maybe not, but in WD dude said they were trying to make DA more like they were before the heresy, ie combat squads and plasma. If that was the intention, then its worked. Also agree that all armies should have pistol and grenades as standard, then my Grey hunters may only cost 15-16 pts wi a bolter, instead of 18.
 

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Ok firstly Why compare DA to Iron warriors? We all know they are over powered and can be used by a relative newb and get good results. Therefore we know DA should not be as good as IW as it one of the 2/3 really powerful lists left in the current 40k meta.
Also it kinda gets me that whenever there is a GT heat or final people start bitching about whatever won. Last year you couldn't go anywhere on the net without hearing how Ultwe were broken. Heat one there was endless Mech eldar and tau slating, every list posted had some sore guys who'd gotten owned by them saying Yeah but how would it deal with mech eldar/tau. Then there was a spate on Mech marines. "you get owned by 3 preds and 9 landspeeders". Yeah its true, ALL armies have certain lists they will suffer against. IW can be beaten. The top 25 spots at the final weren't all IW. Remember those guys at the top tables all weekend, they actually are pretty good at 40k. Its not a case of paper/sissors/stone you have IW i lose.

Cool now ive got that out of the way we can look at why I think DA have the potential to be competative. Lets look at the evidence

Ravenwing bikes having the scout move. So they start in escalation and get a 12" move before the game. So can Charge first turn. Potentially Very good as bikes are pretty tough to dislodge for armies not geared for cc[guard/tau].

Ravenwing have Teleport homers and scout. 1/2 your Deathwing can DS on thefirst turn. Ravenwing scout 12" termies teleport within 6" therefore up to 18" on. Side armour shots first turn, or overwhelm one flank. The ravenwing first turn assault can then block most return fire at the Deathwing.

Preds and Razorbacks: Yes Lascannons are more expensive, but the other options are cheaper. This means you can take a fair amount of armour, albiet not the "optimal" builds, for very few points comparatively. More scoring units, give opp more target priority issues as they need to think if its even worth taking out as cheaper than normal. When Marines were re-done GW admitted that pred's were too cheap, but that they left the costs the same because they thought it would be unfair for chaos to still get them cheaply. Looks like they decided to sort that out in the DA codex. But to Balance it out they make the other options cheaper. Pred with Autocannon, heavybolter sponsons, smoke launchers and search light for less than 6 vanilla las/plas marines. To quote an Orange legend thats "cheap as chips"
Look how cheap the Razorback with HB's is. Yeah lascannons are better, thats why they are more expensive, although DA las razorback is less than Vanilla.

Tacticals:Sure combat squads suck. That out of the way lascannons are more expensive. Why? Well if a choice is taken 90% of the time and all other options are never seen its because the option is too good for its points. The plasmacannon doesn't see much use, even though its not a bad weapon. Solution? Make plasma cannon cheaper and lascannon more expensive. Same with plasma guns. The no brainer choice in vanilla, but if its slghtly more then maybe its worth thinking about the other options for once.

Assault cannons: WoW big surprise them becoming more expenisve, afterall there only the best heavy weapon in the game and too cheap in marine lists and do to marines what Oblits do to IW's. Maybe people will have to think when they chuck there list together. by the way thats a good thing guys.

Rhino's: Rhino's Cheaper: Yipeeeeeeeeeeeee! although EA is a tad expensive you have to ask yourself would you still take it. If it takes more than 5 seconds to decide it was probably too cheap before. Maybe Rhino mounted squads would be worth taking? Rapid fire bolters Can be very affective when used properly.

Maybe they aren't as straight forward as standard marines or BA where you can throw in 3-6 lascannons and 3-6 assault cannons and know you can deal with pretty much anything by pointing at it and rolling dice.
 

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I think certain people are seeing the complaints about DA from a fluff vs. powergamer perspective. In most cases this isn't correct, and the posts bitching about how "Hurr, maybe the powergamers will have to think now" are generally not replying to the concerns.
Its mainly the lack of choice and the mandatory wargear that people think make them worse than normal SM from what I've seen complained about.
People want the choice to have to pay for mandatory bolt pistols and frag and krak for a dev squad or not. They want the option to be able to choose options for commanders and termies. They don't want to feel worse off than codex marines if they take anything other than the shiny new Raven/Deathwing options. Those are the main concerns I've seen voiced by DA players, not powergamers complaining.
 

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Those are issues i see with the codex as well. although i dont agree with the pistols and grenades as being an issue. Its free and makes absolute sense from the fluff perspective of marines. Yes wargear options are much more individual just like eldar they have restricted our choice in what we can take. However they are going for the streamlined approach and i think we will be seeing this in each codex update as they happen, even marines when they get re-done.

My reply is specifically to the threads on this board that go on about they cant compete with IW so the list must be crap type posts
 

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If it's any consolation, how many here actually think the IW list will remain untouched with the impending new chaos codex? I'll be the first to say I'm not builiding an IW army nor will I any time in the near future. The trend seems crystal clear lists GW feels have been abused are getting massive overhauls.
 

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streamlined approach
Do we have to use 'business speak'?

Dumbed down, simplified, reduced in complexity/choice/variety, all fit just as well.

And I agree with anathema, it is not a 'fluff gamers vs power gamers' thing. Why are fluff gamers happy that there is less and less choice about how they can make their army lists?

The variety in Codex SM's could be abused, but it could also be used to make original, and interesting lists. Like taking bionics on loads of guys- using this as a basis for bionic model conversions, etc.

Actually choosing not to give a squad frags and being punished when you charge into cover.

Actually choosing not to give a Commander and Iron halo and being punished when he gets hit by a fist.

Actually choosing not to give a squad a Vet.Sgt and being punished when they break on Ld 8.

Actually having to make the above choices, rather than having them spoon fed to you.
 

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Jeridian said:
And I agree with anathema, it is not a 'fluff gamers vs power gamers' thing. Why are fluff gamers happy that there is less and less choice about how they can make their army lists?
Having looked at the list, i don't see less choice, I see different choices.
surely deciding to build your army with these limits is a choice in itself?

Actually choosing not to give a squad frags and being punished when you charge into cover.
Why not just not use them? it's not like you payed points for them.
have it as a bit of your chapters fluff.

Actually choosing not to give a Commander and Iron halo and being punished when he gets hit by a fist.
I think that was more game mechanics to get commanders to be used again over chaplains / librarians. now a librarian, Chaplain and captain all have special gear for a similar cost.

Actually choosing not to give a squad a Vet.Sgt and being punished when they break on Ld 8.
OK, This one I agree on. My one dislike of the codex.

I think the wargear issue isn't really that bad as you make it. as its a first founding Chapter that mirrors the old squad equipment lists of the RT era Space Marines. Shame we didn't get the Graviton gun back... :cry:
 
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