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Discussion Starter #1
I am considering starting up an entirely Tzeentch themed Daemons army and I could really use some advice from the heretics.

My first and biggest question is Fateweaver or Normal Greater Daemon
I mean, the Fateweaver gets all the sick abilities but the basic statline looks, well, skimpy to be honest.

Also, if I plan on a Tri-Prince list, should I go for cheapies or big pricey ones?

I plan on running horrors, as only troop choices but should I use squads of 6 as recommended by many?

Do I need screamers if I have 4 MCs/

Do 2 squads of 4 flamers seem sufficient?

Im going for 2000 points at some point and Id like your opinions
 

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Kairos can be very useful but only in larger games (such as the 2000 points that you stated) where the extra points is not such an issue. You also have to make sure that you use him wisely. His most powerful ability is obviously his one that lets all friendly units within 12" re-roll invulnerable saves. Thus you need to make sure that he sticks around other units that will attract a lot of attention such as your daemon princes.

Generally you should try to keep your princes cheep. Many people seem to think that they must have wings but really, they don't, especially if you are using a shooting prince (which you will be as Tzeentch). This is a good set up for a Tzeentch prince:

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Iron Hide
- Bolt of Tzeentch
Points: 170

Though if you keep your prince near Kairos and want to save points/get a second psychic power then you could either drop iron hide or replace it with another psychic power.

I honestly don't know why you would use horrors in squads of 6. If you want to be correct to the fluff then take them in squads of 9 (9 being Tzeentch's favoured number). Otherwise I wouldn't take them in squads of less than 9, the squad will just die too easily.

Screamers are really not very good. You could use them if you know that you will be facing lots and lots of heavy mechanized armies but otherwise they are pretty pathetic.

For 2000 points you should have a third squad of flamers. Flamers are very powerful and eight just isn't very many for 2000 points.

Otherwise just make sure that you take the changeling and have fun shooting stuff. :eek:k:
 

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if you're going for mono tzeentch, you should do neither. Tzeentch GDs are shit. The issue is that if you're doing mono tzeentch then you want to have as much shooting as possible. This means both Bolt and gaze on as much as you can, since you won't be killing anyone in CC with your flamers and horrors.

With that being said, the issue with GDs is that you pay at a minimum 250 and very likely more points for one bolt and one gaze. Yes, you get a MC, but that is an MC that won't really kill much of anything in CC (and even less if it's FW), an MC that will get destroyed by anything resembling a CC-unit, and an MC that won't be using it's BS5 to shoot stuff which is what you bought him for.

so what do you do then? enter tzeralds. These guys will give you similar survivability (little less against small arms, more against S8+), one more wound, more mobility (yay jetbike), and the most important thing: a Bolt/Gaze platform for just over 100 points. That is 3 times as point efficient as fateweaver, and they won't fuck off after taking one wound :p

The points efficiency goes hand in hand with the slot efficiency. They only take half an HQ slot, so you can have 4 of them for not much more than you would buy JUST fateweaver. No comparison if you ask me.


Regarding princes, the same thing applies. The cool thing is, if you have 4 tzeralds in chariots, your princes don't need to fly. you're a shooty army that deep strikes, so what your princes need to do is sit (or walk) and shoot while providing a minimum of CC detraction to people wanting to assault your horrors. That being said, your should give your princes mark of tzeentch, bolt, and gaze. That's it. And make sure you get 3 of them. Maybe T5 4++ doesn't sound like a lot, but you have to keep in mind you'll have 3 of them PLUS the tzeralds.


Regarding the rest of the army, you want to continue with the same theme and get as many bolt/gaze as you can. This means getting flamers with bolt (yes, it's expensive but if you use your flamers carefully and abuse their mobility instead of one hit suicide bombers they can last quite a bit, and you can get more BS 4 bolt). As for horrors, keep them in squads of 5, and again give them bolt. It's only a BS 3 bolt, but it's cheap and by keeping the unit numbers low you only 'waste' 4 warpfires if you want to use the bolt. Obviously you would shoot your higher BS bolts first, and if possible shoot the warpfire on troops coming out of transports, but yeah.


so if you follow this advice more or less, you'll be able to get 7 Bolts at BS 4, 3 Bolts at BS 5, and 4-6 bolts at BS 3, plus 4 Daemonic Gaze at BS 4 and 3 at BS 5. You HAVE to maximise this, because that's the only thing tzeentch daemons do well. If you don't, you're asking to get your face beaten in by a unit of tacticals in CC, and you really don't want that.

finally, I'll leave you with a link to Chumbalaya's mono tzeentch list. it's a little different than mine in a few aspects, but you'll see the core of it is the same.

http://bnhblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/mono-tzeentch.html

Hope that helped,

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Discussion Starter #4
That did help immensely thank you. Regarding the Horrors though, one of you says 9, one 5, I know that 5 offer more bolt but they would be ridiculously easy to get KPs off. Any thoughts on the Blue Scribes?

I thought I would just give the princes plus one strength and breath of chaos and make him a CC unit?

Bad Idea? should I stick with gunboat?

Edit: I keep reading that DPs can shoot twice w/o sorcery. How is that Possible??
 

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It's true that having small units will give more Kill Points. The reality though, is that if you take fewer large units the benefit you gain in Kill Points will be overshadowed by the disadvantage you get of having less units on the table. Kill Points should never be a priority compared to the army functioning as a whole. In the end, armies which don't worry about killpoints tend to beat armies that are overly concerned with them, simply because they end up being better armies.

with regard to the princes, it's up to you, although I wouldn't give them the extra strength. The princes will be your only CC element anyway, and with S5 and ignoring armour saves you're pretty good. At the end of the day you'll use them more as a disencouraging factor than actually killing a lot. If you really want breath of chaos, I'd include it in the tzeralds. Being in chariots gives them much more mobility, which means you'll be able to take more advantage of the breath.

Princes can shoot twice without master because they are Monstrous Creatures. All MCs are allowed to shoot 2 weapons per shooting phase (although never the same one twice), so master of sorcery would only be good if there were three good shooting powers of similar disposition. While bolt, gaze, and breath are all quite good, you'll very rarely find yourself in a situation where you would have a good target for the 3 of them at the same time. The fact that you can't give princes We Are Legion means that having them being able to shoot 3 powers is even less likely to pay off.

With regard to the blue scribes, for you they bring 2 things to the table. The ability to use pavane in your otherwise all tzeentch army is one, and the other one is the possibility of shooting bolt twice (from the watch this! rule). That being said, I still think a fourth tzerald in chariot is a better choice, since pavane won't help you THAT much (you'd rather shoot things dead than delay them getting closer to you) and the chariot is more survivable and predictable than the scribes. In an army as random as CD, you want all the predictability you can get.


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I agree with more or less everything Forty Three said except for bolt on the flamers. TBH I've never tried it but it seems too expensive of a thing to put on a unit that 9 times out of 10 should just flame anyway. I'm also a pretty big fan of Fateweaver but it's hard to compete with that many tzeralds. with 4 of those and 3 Tzeentch DPs the enemy won't have any lack of high priority targets.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks so much you guys, specially 43, for the in-depth responses. So essentially it will come down to running Heralds OR The Oracle. I really like the FW model but Heralds seem to be a pretty legitimate option. Do you guys have ideas for the models I would use as a Chariot Herald? I dont recall seeing them anywhere. Also, how many Horrors do I want, 30? Thanks again
 

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for the tzeralds in chariots, you can make them using a flamer as the herald himself, and a screamer pulling the chariot. Then you just need something to be the chariot. There are plenty of different chariots you can use from the WFB kits, and in plastic too, so you can just pick out one of them. Alternatively you can just do it as a flying disc pulled by a screamer.

about the horrors, it depends. I'd decide that number in the end, after having included all the killy stuff. but 4-5 units of 5-6 should be ok

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My favorite Tzeentch units are:

Heralds of Tzeentch w/bolt, master of sorcery, chariot

5 Pink Horrors w/bolt (and one unit with the changeling)

3-4 Flamers (in larger games you can give them bolt)

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/bolt (in larger games you can give them flight and ironhide)


The Greater Daemons are fun, but don't do enough damage to warrant their cost in smaller games. You're better off using two heralds instead.

Pink horrors can work as both small units with bolt, or large units without bolt, either can work just fine. I usually use smaller units, but it's up to you.

A daemon prince with bolt and nothing else is incredibly cost effective. I only give him more in larger games, where I'm facing a lot of gunfire, and may need to catch land raiders.

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Would you consider 2000 points to be a "larger game". I plan on playing almost soley 2000 points

Also, I have yet to hear of or see a game where Daemons have won. Are they that bad?
 
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