[whittsy]

I was having a wee little look at the new "Psyker Phase" and specificly the part that says "Models with the Daemon rule may choose to select spells from the Daemonology: Malefic spells". It then goes on to add that Daemons casting from this section cannot suffer perils of the warp on ANY roll of a double unlike non daemon models casting do suffer on any roll of a double. ASIDE FROM THAT - I've kinda worked out a BS style of game play one can achieve if playing as either Codex: Chaos Daemons mainly, or even as ANY team now allied with Chaos Daemons or even Crimson Slaughter to a finer degree. As these new 7th ed rules, even Imperial Armies can be allied with Daemons (wtf? I know)

ANYWAY, to my point: It is my understanding that as a Daemon (or not, just worked better with daemons) You can have 6 HQs as a primary daemon force (2 greater daemons and 4 heralds, lets use Tzeentch in this case) 2x Lords of Change and 4 Heralds of Tz. Have 2 or 3 squads of 10+ Pink Horrors, 3 Daemons Princes as lvl 1 psyker or better for your heavy support. This is your army, because technically speaking, every single one of these casters (even the horrors!) can now SUMMON MORE DAEMONS. You can technically speaking, summon up to 12 squads of 10 Pink Horrors in your psyker phase. It doesn't say that use units can't behave as normal, so technically AGAIN, these new squads of pink horrors can summon more squads (given your number of casting dice), now unless you're not summoning the horrors, they obviously can't summon more shit.

Here's the kicker, that's just primaris malefic spell, you can continue to summon blood crushers, screamers, or seekers, or another spell to summon a herald of your choice OR EVEN A SPELL that can sacrific your caster into a greater daemon of your choice, ie: your squad of 20 pink horrors (3 warp charge points) can sacrifice itself into a Lord of Change, if I'm not mistaken.

On another note, these summon units may also take instruments and icons of chaos for no additional costs. It also states in the other spells (to summon heralds and greater daemons) you can take 20 points of gifts for heralds, and 30 points of gifts for greater daemons. Your lowly psyker gets into shit, make him a blood thirster with a blood blade and axe of khorne. Sorted.

As cool as these spells sound, I don't think GW really thought this one through. Come the tournament scene, a simple 1000 point army can EASILY become 1500 point army in 1 turn. Then a 2500 point army in the next turn, and so on. How long until 8th edition because of this fuck up?

 

[scscofield]

I was under the impression that they still perils on a double 6.

Other codex will suffer peril on all doubles when using those powers. Demons are being told they still only suffer on a double 6.

At least that is what I gathered, I don't have a book to verify.


The summoned models can't summon more till the next phase was another rule I think.
I also want to say that the primaris is a WC3. That is going to be a huge limit to spamming the spell successfully.

 

[Mossy Toes]

Yes, you can create an obscene number of psykers. As you generate warp charge during the beginning of the psychic phase, at least summoned psykers don't contribute to your pool the turn they come in.

The fact that they are Warp Charge 3 to cast, mostly, means that you'll be throwing 6+ dice at them to make them go successfully, though, which has a pretty high chance of Perils that grows rapidly every extra D6 you add in.

The "Sacrifice" power which lets you summon a Herald with 30 points of gear (read: a Herald of Tzeentch with an extra mastery level) for the loss of a cultist for just one Warp Charge... that's going to be the real brutal, reliable force-increaser, I think, if you roll a few of them. Too bad summoned Heralds are ICs who are unable to join a unit of, say, Horrors the turn they come in, as the Psychic Phase comes after the Movement Phase.

What I haven't seen people dwelling on is the idea of a knot of Tzeentchi greater daemons and/or princes rolling several Cursed Earth powers for a bubble of rerollable 2++ (or 3+ rerolling 1s) invulns FMCs...

 

[whittsy]

I was under the impression that they still perils on a double 6.

correct. But say a Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with his item that makes him Daemon and the balestar to re-roll failed psyker tests.

The fact that they are Warp Charge 3 to cast, mostly, means that you'll be throwing 6+ dice at them to make them go successfully, though, which has a pretty high chance of Perils that grows rapidly every extra D6 you add in.

I did forget to say it is WC3, it will stop the spam, kind of. Going by probability though, if you have enough units and just throw 3 dice at it per psyker, chances are you're going to get 2 or 3 successful casts (This is with a larger army with 2 greater Daemons, 4 heralds + the pink horror squads and psyker DPs), its worth running the risk. It just seems to me that GW has thought of a cool idea to introduce summoning daemons, because sometimes the good guys think "fuck it, daemon time!" but I don't think they thought of the "Daemons doing daemon spam" - but then again, you need the models.

 

[Mossy Toes]

correct. But say a Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with his item that makes him Daemon and the balestar to re-roll failed psyker tests.

Ah--think about psychic power availability. With Balestar, you're now paying 10 points more than a spell familiar for the privilege of losing Deny The Witch bonuses.

Still, certainly cheaper than a DP with 3 MLs. And can hop into, say, Termi Armor for the survivability.

 

[MidnightSun]

The "Sacrifice" power which lets you summon a Herald with 30 points of gear (read: a Herald of Tzeentch with an extra mastery level) for the loss of a cultist for just one Warp Charge... that's going to be the real brutal, reliable force-increaser, I think, if you roll a few of them. Too bad summoned Heralds are ICs who are unable to join a unit of, say, Horrors the turn they come in, as the Psychic Phase comes after the Movement Phase.

I really don't think it'll be a huge deal - yeah, eventually you can have a stupid number of Pink Horrors, but Pink Horrors aren't exactly game-breaking and Heralds of Tzeentch are kinda useless (how often did you see them without Grimoire in 6th?). Only being able to bring 30pts of gear makes them unable to pack a Grimoire or Portalglyph, so I don't think it's that impressive. Bringing a ton of Pink Horrors (or more likely Heralds, as 3 Warp Charge and a higher risk of Perils for most psykers isn't nearly worth 10 Horrors) but having to make Psychic Tests to cast them and being able to have it cancelled and being given an 'ok' unit at the end of it is pretty much just what Tyranid players have been able to do with 8 Tervigons since forever.

What I haven't seen people dwelling on is the idea of a knot of Tzeentchi greater daemons and/or princes rolling several Cursed Earth powers for a bubble of rerollable 2++ (or 3+ rerolling 1s) invulns FMCs...

Alas, Blessings specifically don't stack. No multiple Hammerhand or Cursed Earth.

 

[Vaz]

correct. But say a Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with his item that makes him Daemon and the balestar to re-roll failed psyker tests.

Grandfathering in previous editions rules sadly sometimes has this effect. But at the same time, combinations like this and other synergies are what makes the game fun. Look at Tau and their markerlight synergy.

 

[loki619]

i played a game on sat and i wanted to really 7th it with a daemon csm army of tz and i was getting d6 + 19 charges per turn and by turn 3 had doubled my army in size including 2 extra greater daemons its filth it really really is

 

[Mossy Toes]

Alas, Blessings specifically don't stack. No multiple Hammerhand or Cursed Earth.

Ah, true. I imagine that people will argue it given the "cumulative with other invuln buffs" sentence of Cursed Earth, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the same Blessing. So to get a 2+ rerollable invuln, you need to rely on Fateweaver's native 4+, getting the warp storm result that buffs invulns, successfully proccing Grimoire, or rolling Forewarning on Divination. So... still pretty easily, honestly, in the long run of things. Especially if you take Fateweaver.

CSM can get a 3+ invuln with incredible ease with MoT, though. Possessed (with a CS DaemonSorc, I imagine), Warp Talons, and Oblits might be coming back in a big way! But do bear in mind that MoT can't buff to 2+, so other modifiers aren't useful there, and you don't get to reroll 1s. Still!

One question that come to mind for me: Do Conjuration units coming in count as coming in from Deep Strike Reserve? The book only says conjured units "Deep Strike," and yet Flying Monstrous Creatures must Swoop when entering play from Deep Strike Reserve. Cursed Earth only prevents scatter for daemon units coming in from Deep Strike Reserve. Do summoned Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change not have the opportunity to Swoop the turn they come in? Does Cursed Earth not prevent scatter of summoned Daemonology units--kind of counter-intuitive for a Daemonology power whose design focus seems to be focused on reducing some of the unreliableness of summoning Daemons...

Ah well, DSing Warp Talons with MoT in reserve forcing blinding tests on multiple enemy units after getting locused in with a 3++ from Cursed Earth are definitely going to be a thing.

 

[MidnightSun]

Ah, true. I imagine that people will argue it given the "cumulative with other invuln buffs" sentence of Cursed Earth, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the same Blessing. So to get a 2+ rerollable invuln, you need to rely on Fateweaver's native 4+, getting the warp storm result that buffs invulns, successfully proccing Grimoire, or rolling Forewarning on Divination. So... still pretty easily, honestly, in the long run of things. Especially if you take Fateweaver.

At which point Fateweaver collapses on his T5 4+ butt and the plan goes tits-up.

CSM can get a 3+ invuln with incredible ease with MoT, though. Possessed (with a CS DaemonSorc, I imagine), Warp Talons, and Oblits might be coming back in a big way! But do bear in mind that MoT can't buff to 2+, so other modifiers aren't useful there, and you don't get to reroll 1s. Still!

Yeah, you can get to 3++, but you could do that throughout 6th with a Skyshield and Mark of Tzeentch and nobody did it so I highly doubt it'll break the game.

One question that come to mind for me: Do Conjuration units coming in count as coming in from Deep Strike Reserve? The book only says conjured units "Deep Strike," and yet Flying Monstrous Creatures must Swoop when entering play from Deep Strike Reserve. Cursed Earth only prevents scatter for daemon units coming in from Deep Strike Reserve. Do summoned Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change not have the opportunity to Swoop the turn they come in? Does Cursed Earth not prevent scatter of summoned Daemonology units--kind of counter-intuitive for a Daemonology power whose design focus seems to be focused on reducing some of the unreliableness of summoning Daemons...

Afraid I can see nothing on this under Conjuration. We've played it as Glide, since you haven't moved the minimum distance required for Swoop.

Ah well, DSing Warp Talons with MoT in reserve forcing blinding tests on multiple enemy units after getting locused in with a 3++ from Cursed Earth are definitely going to be a thing.

So... a hugely expensive unit of dudes who are as tough as 14pt Marines who rely on a random Psychic Power with a 12" range to be useful, the purpose of which is to cause a Blind check (which most armies will pass or not care about), and then charge people despite having no grenades so they strike last? I think that's a really awful plan, but if you can find a way to make it work then by all means enlighten me (I know I sound cynical, but I honestly do want Warp Talons to be even vaguely viable - them models and fluff are great!)

 

[mayegelt]

Quoting me here...

Things like Tzeentch armies of old relied on the fact that every unit of horrors shot fireballs. The trouble seems to be stemming from people claiming an army had a very very large amount of dice and used to make more units for more dice. But as I have said in several threads (including this one I think), that if you are spending all your dice on making new units you aren't killing anyone with them. It would be like having a fully loaded predator / vindicator / leman russ and choosing not to fire the gun because you prefer tank shocking everything.

If you threw this example at another army it would say be a guard army. You have chosen to give up all those lasguns, heavy weapon supports so in essence sacrificed all your shooting with all your guns and replaced them with walky talkys (E.T. reference there)... but you can get 25% pts of guardsmen each turn, or unarmed guardsmen who can also help summon more.
Sure you will have mass numbers at the end of the battle potentially, but the likely chance is your enemy has actually caused more damage to you than you can summon, and because you aren't doing any damage to him they will win the game of attrition. Not to mention that just having loads of models doesn't always net you objectives and there seems to be a load more of them now.

In effect the Tzeentch fireballing army is heavily nurfed because your chance to actually cast your spells used to be over 91% pass rate regardless of using flickering fire at WC 3. NOW casting the same spell if left to just the dice they generate themselves they will only succeed 14% of the time...
If you go for the WC3 version and you add 2 dice from your spare pool it goes up to 50%, add another dice an it is 66%, but that is burning a whole secondary units power to cast a spell that in 6th you could have had 82% to cast both, and 99.19% to have just cast 1 of the 2 between them.

Of course the deny the witch thing is slightly different as well, and rather than just needing the one roll of 5+/6+ that they could roll regardless. They now have to manage the dice they have to try to roll enough 5+/6+ rolls to stop the spell. So on mass casting with loads of dice, unless your opponent also has loads you should get loads going through.

So yeah as everyone is pointing out, yeah they can summon armies from armies who summon armies... But actually the chance is low and the models you make are delayed in actually taking part in the battle as they deep strike so cant charge on that turn.

Here's the kicker, that's just primaris malefic spell, you can continue to summon blood crushers, screamers, or seekers

Isn't it Hounds, Flamers, Nurglings & Seekers? or has it changed since the posting of the cards on this forum by Zion here http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1734898&postcount=492 ?

 

[Mossy Toes]

At which point Fateweaver collapses on his T5 4+ butt and the plan goes tits-up.

Well, yeah, but running a Cursed Earth near Fatey gives him a very respectable 3++ rerolling 1s. The point of that combo is that it makes your stuff hard to kill.

Yeah, you can get to 3++, but you could do that throughout 6th with a Skyshield and Mark of Tzeentch and nobody did it so I highly doubt it'll break the game.

And you still can on units like Havocs. My FLGS wasn't happy with that interpretation of the rules, saying MoT didn't apply to an external save like the Skyshield's (which I think is rubbish, but I'm not going to alienate my local gaming group and don't want to be That Guy, so I'll go along with it). The nice thing about these 3++es is that they're mobile, and so can go on assaulty units.

So... a hugely expensive unit of dudes who are as tough as 14pt Marines who rely on a random Psychic Power with a 12" range to be useful, the purpose of which is to cause a Blind check (which most armies will pass or not care about), and then charge people despite having no grenades so they strike last? I think that's a really awful plan, but if you can find a way to make it work then by all means enlighten me (I know I sound cynical, but I honestly do want Warp Talons to be even vaguely viable - them models and fluff are great!)

They are in no way competitive. They are, however, much more reliable and can take advantage of certain special rule opportunities they did not have before. They've always been something to run in non-competitive lists, and so this nice little synergy, so perfectly paired to their weaknesses, makes them more effective, less fragile, and therefore possibly even viable.

 

[falcoso]

Summoning most things are useless unless you can get at least 2 of them off a turn at which point you are spending a fair amount of points, T3 5++ its really easy to kill, and a herald cannot join a unit until the next turn so in most cases will just die. Granted it takes the firepower away from something else but certainly in smaller you aren't going to get that much. Bloodcrushers may be useful T4 W4 and you get three of them so ho know with that but most things aren't going to last, especially with the ridiculous amount of dice you will need to do it.

 

[MidnightSun]

Summoning most things are useless unless you can get at least 2 of them off a turn at which point you are spending a fair amount of points, T3 5++ its really easy to kill, and a herald cannot join a unit until the next turn so in most cases will just die. Granted it takes the firepower away from something else but certainly in smaller you aren't going to get that much. Bloodcrushers may be useful T4 W4 and you get three of them so ho know with that but most things aren't going to last, especially with the ridiculous amount of dice you will need to do it.

Pretty sure Bloodcrushers only have three wounds each.

But yes - as our games today proved, using Malefic to summon a bunch of Daemons doesn't really work with 2 Mastery 3 Sorcerors (even with one with Prophet of the Voices to avoid Perils) as you simply can't push through enough casts to get a horde of Daemons. They just end up being easy combat victories (and therefore easy extra movement) for your opponent.

 

[Routine]

One question that come to mind for me: Do Conjuration units coming in count as coming in from Deep Strike Reserve? The book only says conjured units "Deep Strike," and yet Flying Monstrous Creatures must Swoop when entering play from Deep Strike Reserve. Cursed Earth only prevents scatter for daemon units coming in from Deep Strike Reserve. Do summoned Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change not have the opportunity to Swoop the turn they come in? Does Cursed Earth not prevent scatter of summoned Daemonology units--kind of counter-intuitive for a Daemonology power whose design focus seems to be focused on reducing some of the unreliableness of summoning Daemons...

In the second paragraph of the Conjuration Power description on page 26, the sentence fragment that immediately follows the bolded portion about deepstriking and range specifically states that the new unit is treated as having arrived from reserves for all purposes, so I believe Cursed Earth, Icons of Chaos and the like should work for preventing Deep Strike scatter, which is nice. With regard to someone else's comment on Heralds, the amount of pts they get for upgrades is exactly enough for the Grimoire or the Portalglyph, so as long as you havent already included those items in your army, you get some nice kit and another psyker (if a Herald of Tzeentch anyway) for the cost of a model that is presumably around 9pts or so

 

[Mossy Toes]

With regard to someone else's comment on Heralds, the amount of pts they get for upgrades is exactly enough for the Grimoire or the Portalglyph, so as long as you havent already included those items in your army, you get some nice kit and another psyker (if a Herald of Tzeentch anyway) for the cost of a model that is presumably around 9pts or so

Do bear in mind that characters can only join units in the movement phase and can only lay down the Portalglyph/use Grimoire in the movement phase as well, so a canny opponent will take out your 2W, T3 model the turn it comes in before it can join any unit or use its fancy gear. You can try to hide them as they come in, but if you don't have a scatter-reduction method.. no guarantee that the Herald won't scatter out into the open.

 

[Routine]

I wasnt saying that it would be a good idea, as of course as you have pointed out, it is easy to kill them, I was simply mentioning that the pts limit for Herald-upgrades allowed the Grimoire/Portalglyph to be taken. At the same time, it is better to have the Grimoire/Portalglyph on the table and ensconced in a unit to begin the game, otherwise they arent there for the movement phase and the player gets less potential uses out of them. In the end, the 30pts is probably better spent on an extra Mastery Level or something

 

[falcoso]

Pretty sure Bloodcrushers only have three wounds each.

But yes - as our games today proved, using Malefic to summon a bunch of Daemons doesn't really work with 2 Mastery 3 Sorcerors (even with one with Prophet of the Voices to avoid Perils) as you simply can't push through enough casts to get a horde of Daemons. They just end up being easy combat victories (and therefore easy extra movement) for your opponent.

My mistake it is 3. But still the deamons most likely to survive a turn are bloodcrushers as they are T4 which is harder to kill or plaguebearers, for the same reason but the also have shrouded (though less offensive capability than bloodcrushers).

It also didn't help you had some uncanny rolling of 6s.... :laugh:

 

[MidnightSun]

So if you play with any LOS blocking terrain at all, like you should do, then you can replace the Grimoire or Portalglyph whenever it dies?

That's hilarious.

My mistake it is 3. But still the deamons most likely to survive a turn are bloodcrushers as they are T4 which is harder to kill or plaguebearers, for the same reason but the also have shrouded (though less offensive capability than bloodcrushers).

It also didn't help you had some uncanny rolling of 6s.... :laugh:

Tyranid Warriors with a 5++ and no armour save are not hard to kill. Hell, a single Devastator Squad with Missile Launchers will rip right through them. Or a Battle Cannon, or a squad of Meltas, or like a single Tactical Squad.

 

[Mossy Toes]

So if you play with any LOS blocking terrain at all, like you should do, then you can replace the Grimoire or Portalglyph whenever it dies?

Don't have the Daemon dex open, but pretty sure says you may only take one of them in your army, not that you can only have one on the field at any time. Taking it once counts as having bought the unique item, insofar as I remember it...