[Chaos Crusader]

So, my brother tells me now his Salamanders and my Black Laegion are nearing completion (2k level), he's told me that his next list will be Grey Knights... We work towards 1500 then move on from there, so my thought was can i do a solely Daemon Prince list at 1500?

The basic idea is to have Belakor as the Warlord and four Princes at his side (each having one of the four marks of Chaos)

Belakor

Daemon Prince of Khorne

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch

Daemon Prince of Nurgle

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh



Now as i always state im a relative beginner to 40k so id appreciate any views leading me down the right path with this, i have the CSM Codex, but would it be better running from the Chaos Daemon list?
Has anyone run this list before? can it be done fluff wise, can all the Princes stand being next to each other with the hatred rules? Lots of questions i know but as always any input is well recieved.

Cheers

 

[MidnightSun]

Be'lakor
Daemon Prince of Khorne with Axe of Blind Fury, Power Armour and Wings
Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Mastery Level 3, Power Armour, Wings and Burning Brand of Skalathrax
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with Mastery Level 3, Power Armour and Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Mastery Level 2, Power Armour and Wings

1490pts, expand to 2000pts by adding a pair of allied Daemon Princes of Slaanesh with Warp-Forged Armour, Wings and Mastery 1 from the Daemons book for some anti-air. It's a pretty strong list purely through the number of FMCs you put on the table. Fluff-wise, sure, you can do it, and it'd be kinda cool to have almost a 'squad' of Daemon Princes.

 

[Mossy Toes]

Are you looking to go Battle-Forged? You'd need to make a few hundred extra points spare for cultists and nurglings as troops choices, so at the 1500 point level... that would be hard. Take a list at the same number of points as the one MidnightSun just posted that also squeezes in the 235 points needed for 2 squads of Cultists and 3 allied contingents' worth of Nurglings (or something in that ballpark)? Whew.

Honestly, you might be better off if you don't stick too rigidly to "princes only"--if you take a Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change instead of a DPoK and DPoT, you'd be in a more competitive place. If you're committed to your very expensive T5 W4 models, well... I guess my T6 W5 alternatives who cost as much or less aren't going to sway you, but I still think they're worth considering.

You'd probably be best off with a primary detachment of CSM, then several allied detachments of Daemons, if you were looking at a Battle-forged list. Plus no risk of Warp Storm screwing you over, that way.

As for each god, which should be from where...

DP of Slaanesh: Daemons, for the Lash of Despair and the shot at Iron Arm on Biomancy, for the chance at 2D6 S9 (S6 at worst) shots. Plus Endurance, Enfeeble... some other great powers.

DP of Khorne: if you take a Bloodthirster instead, you have to go Daemons. If not, you could go CSM for the AoBF for some extra attacks... but I'd rather go Daemons for the chance to swap a Lesser and Greater Reward for 2 Specialist weapons (+1 attack) and Rampage from the Blade of Blood (making for a total of +2 to +4 attacks against any multi-model opponents)--and no risk of rolling a 1 on a Daemon Weapon! The Bloodthirster can take that combo by just buying a Blade of Blood (Greater Reward), since he already has a free Axe of Khorne, but the DP can choose the slightly more effective (to my eyes) Etherblade rather than the Axe of Khorne if you start from scratch.

DP of Tzeentch: I'd go Daemons for a Lord of Change instead. Plus, hey, then you get some Divination in there too! If you're committed to DPs, though, I'd probably go CSM to grab the BBoS and a spell familiar.

DP of Nurgle: I'd go for CSM, honestly, since he'd make a great carrier for the Black Mace. And when you have enough points, he could also grab ML3 and a spell familiar.

Be'lakor: fill wherever has whatever available. So if you're taking a LoC and BT, go CSM, and if you're taking a DPoT, go Daemons. Perhaps just plain drop him from a 1500 point list, and wait until you're up to 1750 to bring him. The downside of dropping Be'lakor, of course, is that then you have no guarantee of Shrouding, which is the only thing that makes the list viable for non-Nurgle Princes...

 

[MidnightSun]

Are you looking to go Battle-Forged? You'd need to make a few hundred extra points spare for cultists and nurglings as troops choices, so at the 1500 point level... that would be hard. Take a list at the same number of points as the one MidnightSun just posted that also squeezes in the 235 points needed for 2 squads of Cultists and 3 allied contingents' worth of Nurglings (or something in that ballpark)? Whew.

That's a couple of hundred points of things that aren't a turn one threat, and I think it's fairly obvious that this list has no need of Objective Secured whatsoever - you'll have won or lost by turn 3 if that, so removing threats from a threat saturation list to make your alpha strike better in the endgame seems like a weird plan.

Honestly, you might be better off if you don't stick too rigidly to "princes only"--if you take a Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change instead of a DPoK and DPoT, you'd be in a more competitive place. If you're committed to your very expensive T5 W4 models, well... I guess my T6 W5 alternatives who cost as much or less aren't going to sway you, but I still think they're worth considering.

Let's face it, a CSM list with a Daemon Prince other than Be'lakor is going to be fairly unsalvageable garbage anyway, and even Be'lakor can't just be plugged in to any army. Talking about how to make it more 'competitive' is fairly moot, and since he's going to be facing Grey Knights, there is no real way of making a Daemon Prince or Daemons in general work.

DP of Slaanesh: Daemons, for the Lash of Despair and the shot at Iron Arm on Biomancy, for the chance at 2D6 S9 (S6 at worst) shots. Plus Endurance, Enfeeble... some other great powers.

Agreed.

DP of Khorne: if you take a Bloodthirster instead, you have to go Daemons. If not, you could go CSM for the AoBF for some extra attacks... but I'd rather go Daemons for the chance to swap a Lesser and Greater Reward for 2 Specialist weapons (+1 attack) and Rampage from the Blade of Blood (making for a total of +2 to +4 attacks against any multi-model opponents)--and no risk of rolling a 1 on a Daemon Weapon!

True, but adds a bunch of points. I was going to say something about how Bloodthirsters are bad because they can't land and charge in the same turn and have no grenades, but realised Princes have those exact same problems so I have no real objection to this.

DP of Tzeentch: I'd go Daemons for a Lord of Change instead. Plus, hey, then you get some Divination in there too! If you're committed to DPs, though, I'd probably go CSM to grab the BBoS and a spell familiar.

Not entirely convinced Divination helps this list a whole load; re-rolls are never *bad*, but I don't think they'd be particularly *good* either. I wouldn't want to give up the fairly-irrelevant extra combat power of the Prince either, considering the general theme of the list is 'throw expensive Monstrous Creatures at the opponent turn one and hope he didn't bring any counters'.

DP of Nurgle: I'd go for CSM, honestly, since he'd make a great carrier for the Black Mace. And when you have enough points, he could also grab ML3 and a spell familiar.

I really don't like Nurgle Princes as a rule because they're ridiculously easy to tarpit and/or expose to shooting, but since both of your brother's armies have ATSKNF, Slow and Purposeful isn't such a major disadvantage. Don't think ML3 is worth it at all, the CSM tables just aren't that good. I only gave them psychic powers at all because you need to do something other than just fly around and hope you can get into combat eventually.

Be'lakor: fill wherever has whatever available. So if you're taking a LoC, go CSM, and if you're taking a DPoT, go Daemons. Perhaps just plain drop him from a 1500 point list, and wait until you're up to 1750 to bring him. The downside of dropping Be'lakor, of course, is that then you have no guarantee of Shrouding, which is the only thing that makes the list viable for non-Nurgle Princes...

The list isn't viable either way, he's fighting Salamanders and Grey Knights - Salamanders do a nasty Wall of Death and Daemon Princes are one of the most perfect units a squad of Assault Terminators can fight, and Grey Knights can throw enough Warp Charge to shut down Shrouding fairly reliably and can simply sit in cover and kill the Princes when they receive the charge. I only included Be'lakor because it was kinda a requirement of the OP, because frankly I'd rather bring a regular Daemon Prince and have 100pts left over to bring more threats.

 

[Mossy Toes]

That's a couple of hundred points of things that aren't a turn one threat, and I think it's fairly obvious that this list has no need of Objective Secured whatsoever...

True enough, but we're still close enough to 6e that some players still refuse to play against Unbound lists.

I was going to say something about how Bloodthirsters are bad because they can't land and charge in the same turn and have no grenades, but realised Princes have those exact same problems so I have no real objection to this.

Hehehe.

I really don't like Nurgle Princes as a rule because they're ridiculously easy to tarpit and/or expose to shooting, but since both of your brother's armies have ATSKNF, Slow and Purposeful isn't such a major disadvantage. Don't think ML3 is worth it at all, the CSM tables just aren't that good. I only gave them psychic powers at all because you need to do something other than just fly around and hope you can get into combat eventually.

The Black Mace is an excellent anti-tarpit tool (especially since the Aura-o-doom only pops at the end of the fight sub-phase, meaning after pile-ins), and a use for psychic CSM princes somebody in my FLGS has come up with is spell familiar and two powers on Daemonology (probably swapping one for Summoning)--being able to reroll WC3 powers when you only have to throw 4 or 5 dice at it is pretty nice, honestly.

and Grey Knights can throw enough Warp Charge to shut down Shrouding fairly reliably

(to say nothing of Force against your non-EW DPs, or Hammerhand on a Daemonhammer for S10 IDing punchies)

 

[Chaos Crusader]

As always thanks for the input, couldnt ask for more from a forum regarding advice and tips etc.

The list is a complete fluff/cheese/total theory list, i saw a battle video with one players force consisting of only imperial knights vs a bound Tau force... just got me thinking, "could i do that with Daemon Princes??!"

As rightly pointed out certain players may have a problem facing off against this list, but my bro was quite excited about the potential challenge (and to be fair he would be the main opponent of it).

I personally just like the idea of having 5 Princes modelled and painted on the table and the Chaos gods uniting in one monumental force to destroy the loyalist forces... blah blah blah blah

 

[MidnightSun]

True enough, but we're still close enough to 6e that some players still refuse to play against Unbound lists.

Well, most people would refuse to play some Unbound lists - no, you can shove a 2000pt army of Annihilation Barges up your ass - but anyone who's willing to play against a Battle-Forged Flying Circus probably wouldn't care all that much about fighting an Unbound version since you're not really making it appreciably stronger.

The Black Mace is an excellent anti-tarpit tool (especially since the Aura-o-doom only pops at the end of the fight sub-phase, meaning after pile-ins), and a use for psychic CSM princes somebody in my FLGS has come up with is spell familiar and two powers on Daemonology (probably swapping one for Summoning)--being able to reroll WC3 powers when you only have to throw 4 or 5 dice at it is pretty nice, honestly.

I always forget the Black Mace does that. Summoning's cool, yeah, but I don't think you can make good use of it in this list since you have no other targets for small arms. Y'know how taking one Land Raider as your only vehicle is a bad plan? Similar deal, but in reverse - your opponent has nothing to aim his Bolters and Lasguns and Pulse Rifles at because the Princes are all Swooping with T5/3+, so summoning up some Daemons isn't really helping you so much. Cursed Earth is worth rolling on Malefic by itself though, so knock yourself out.

(to say nothing of Force against your non-EW DPs, or Hammerhand on a Daemonhammer for S10 IDing punchies)

That's what I was getting it - in fairness, a Daemon Prince charging 10 GKs in a vacuum is actually pretty favourable on the Prince as he can punk a lot of them before they swing, and they miss a lot of return attacks at WS4, but since GK can just sit in cover and shoot your ass all game because they shoot way better than Daemon Princes you eventually have to either eat the bullets and hope to get objectives at the end of the game, or charge through terrain and the GK are likely to Force Weapon you when you charge.

It never gets old, by the way, to see a player's face when he uses all of his Warp Charge to dispel your nasty spells like Vortex of Doom on his Greater Daemon or Sanctuary on a squad of Paladins, only for you to stick two Banishments on Be'lakor and watch him fold like tissue paper in combat k:

At 2000pts, I'd probably want to work in Fateweaver and the Grimoire although I'd be very hesitant about running them AND Be'lakor (25% of your army's points in primarily support, kinda fragile HQs is a pretty terrible plan).

 

[Squire]

I'd be careful about making an unbound list that's so specialised. Yea, your brother will play you- but how often?

Anyway, from a theme perspective I reckon I'd go mono khorne with an eye to cramming in as many khorne MCs as possible. Skarbrand, a bloodthirster and khorne daemon princes, not all of them winged- some deepstriking. I wish I had my daemon codex handy but I reckon you could get 7+ MCs into a 1500 list this way. I really want to try making this list now... Everything winged swoops turn one (if LOS blocking terrain isn't available), then drops out of swoop turn two as the deepstrikers appear. If half of the MCs get shot to death but the other half make combat it could be an interesting game

The benefit of mono god is battle forging would be relatively straightforward. Skarbrand, two units of bloodletters and a few princes for one detachment, a bloodthirster, two units of letters and a few princes for the other detachment. Skarbrand, thirster, five princes and four units of bloodletters should be possible at 1850. It's going to be a LOT for the opponent to think about on turn 2