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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
D WEAPON ABUSE 1850

PRIMARY CAD: 1408
Autarch: skyrunner, laser lance
Eldrad

3x 3 Jet bikes: 2 scatterlasers 213

3x Vaul’s support battery: 3 d cannons, warlock

Wraithknight: cannons, scatterlaser

CRIMSON DEATH: 440
Crimson Hunter Exarch: starcannons
2 Crimson Hunter: bright lances



The list has 3 ObSec units and 4 sources of d-weapons. It also has arguably one of the better formations in the game -crimson death. Eldrad is used to scout the d-cannons and to add some warp charge. The autarch can start with one squad of d-cannons and eldrad can join another. D-cannons die to assault if you have no cc characters. But against shooting with a warlock they are quite durable.

The crimson heath formation has precision strikes and re rolls and we know how good vector dancer is. They are one of the better AA formations in 40k now. If there are no flyers or FMCs simply target ground troops.

The scatbikes are strictly the best cost per weapon in the game - 6.75 pts per shot for an S6 at BS4 on a 3+ mobile platform. And they are ObSec - whoever says they are not the best troop in 40k needs to rethink his strategies. Sure white scars with grav are good. Eldar jet bikes are better.

Now as far as powers go I want invisibilty/fortune and one in particular to go with my d-cannons is eldritch storm. The new eldritch storm increased in cost to Warp Charge 3 but it is still a S3 Fleshbane/Haywire/Pinning Large Blast and it now gets AP3, making it a threat to infantry, vehicles and MCs. You can choose to try and cast it at Warp Charge 4 - then it hits as an Apocalyptic (10") blast. Just wow. The warlocks cast conceal/shrouding.

If I get to scout all the units then my opponent will be in trouble for sure. Even with 24” range, I could conceivability table him tuern one if he reserves too much. I know, eh.

What does the list fear?

Well quad flyrants with malanthrope, void shields, rippers, lictors and mawlocs will hurt you. Don’t rely on hunters to kill flyrants - flyrants are strictly better - and should be as they cost more. Your only advantages is the autarch which tomes your arrival. Speed in a maelstrom mission is great but as the game progresses and start losing bikes, Nids will be tough.

Daemons are another tough match up. Hounds and bikes and screamers and FMCs will get into assault with you. This where you need your WK to even the playing field. Eldard and autarch are not near tough enough.

All that said 55 point platforms for ranged d weapons can be abused and will be abused. You have NINE blasts per turn plus your WK for added destruction. That is a whole lot of nasty if you go first and get to scout at least two units. The third unit if you roll average can run and start shooting turn two - unless your opponent has moved into range turn one. Did i mention that they have battle focus? You can shoot then run of course but only with the shuriken catapults.
 

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Rattlehead
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With that many points in reserve relying on one Reserve roll, I'd be very worried about getting tabled on turn one or two by a Drop Pod list or Grey Knights or something similar.

Other than that, I dunno - seems like massed infantry would give you a hard time with so much invested in Str D single shots or anti-tank from the Crimson Hunters. Too many bad matchups for me to think it's a great list, I'm afraid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Most of the list is on the table .... WK starts ... batteries start ... autarch and eldrad start .... probably one unit of bikes start. Autarch will enhance the reserve roll as well. So I'n not sure what you mean.

Massed infantry --- I have nine d blasts and some scat bikes. So I'm not overly worried TBH.

Are there bad match ups? Of course there are a few. Most lists have a bad match up. But if it handles 80 percent very well I vcannot ask for more. And knowing its weaknesses I'll deploy accordingly.
 

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Not sure what makes that abuse.

CAD 1 =
Autarch = 70pts
Windriders = 51pts
Windriders = 51pts
Wraithknight, 2 Shuriken Cannon = 325pts

CAD 2
Farseer, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan = 85pts
Windriders = 51pts
Windriders = 51pts
Wraithknight, 2 Shuriken Cannon = 325pts

CAD 3
Farseer, Singing Spear = 75pts
Windriders = 51pts
Windriders = 51pts
Wraithknight, 2 Shuriken Cannon = 325pts

CAD 4
Farseer = 70pts
Windriders = 51pts
Windriders = 51pts
Vauls Wrath, 1 Platform, D-cannon = 55pts
Vauls Wrath, 1 Platform, D-cannon = 55pts
Vauls Wrath, 1 Platform, D-cannon = 55pts

This gives me 6 Deep Striking units with Objective Secured, 2 Psykers, 3 Wraithknights with 2 Strength D Shots a turn, 3 D-Cannon shots, with a Singing Spear thrown, and 18 TL'd Shuriken Catapults. Not exactly a Bladestorm Spam, and I could probably do better, but who really cares about Flyers that much?



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Not sure what makes that abuse.
exactly was i was thinking. Abuse is made with multiple cads.
nice spam list btw, vaz :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
exactly was i was thinking. Abuse is made with multiple cads.
nice spam list btw, vaz
Seriously - does your meta allow more than two and multiple LoWs? Mine does not. I get max two detachments and one LoW and they are also consuidering nerfing the ranged d -1 which is huge. And I do take FMCs and flyers as a serious threat where I play. We see quad flyrant, daemon FMCs and multiple SM flyers. I guess it depends where you play. Generally nova rules are followed but some venues follow ITC.
 

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Seriously - does your meta allow more than two and multiple LoWs? Mine does not.
Is your meta a neverending tourney? However, my meta is me and some friends playing in stores and houses, so...we just limit ourselves.

Also, how cute: D weapons are to be limited and just one LoW, but quad flyrant is ok. That's the reason why we don't do any restrictions. But let's return OT.
You should have specified this limitations in the original post. Otherwise the list vaz posted is plain more abusive.
 

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Seriously - does your meta allow more than two and multiple LoWs? Mine does not. I get max two detachments and one LoW and they are also consuidering nerfing the ranged d -1 which is huge. And I do take FMCs and flyers as a serious threat where I play. We see quad flyrant, daemon FMCs and multiple SM flyers. I guess it depends where you play. Generally nova rules are followed but some venues follow ITC.
You have multiple detachments. Where's the difference? And why are some armies allowed to abuse their rules but others aren't?

Arbitary bullshit rules like that annoy me, as it just leads to a new meta, rather than a balanced beta.



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Rattlehead
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And why are some armies allowed to abuse their rules but others aren't?
Because most people think they could fix 40k and make it into an amazing game with tight competitive rules in their sleep.

Most people are mistaken, but what's new?

It's like how people claimed that Eldar and Tau were the problem with 40k and removing them would make 40k balanced, at which point the game gets dominated by the second tier Codices of Imperial Knights, Space Marines (White Scars, mainly), Tyranids and Daemons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have a primary detachment and a formation. Nova has already imposed limits on what you can bring and ITC is even stricter. This is not new. We have venues that don't even allow FW. Yes, it seems pretty arbitrary. A decurion detachment can take multiple formations and it it is still one detachment. Same for Daemonkin. Some codex seem more heavily penalized. And if IKs are now LoWs and they limit LoWs you cannot play the new codex at all, lol.

Ceratinly it is an issue. And some major events keep adjusting. Limitations on gargantuans and superr heavies, limitations on FW etc. etc. Other events just keep to what is in the BRB. Unfortunately around here there most certainly are some restrictions - only one super heavy or gargantuan per list, one FW unit per list, and no more than two detachments.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Most tournaments in the US - ITC, Adepticon, Nova - only allow 0-1 Super-heavy/Gargantuan LoW. Nova actually currently doesn't allow any at all. Many tournaments only allow one FW unit. Until they change it, you CANNOT even legally run a knight army in a lot of US tournaments.

I agree Vaz - we are playing in fanatsy land not 40k. But it is what it is. So I construct lists with that in mind.
 

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U Mad Bro?
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While I don't really want to get involved I would like to shed some light.

As a Tournament organizer myself, I follow the ITC format not because I feel their should be limits but more because it provides the majority of North American players (at the very least) with a standard which is no different then say Football (Euro). No matter where you go to play it, everyone knows what to expect to some degree. The ITC rules also provide a constantly evolving FAQ which GW has failed to keep up with which helps a lot of people when it comes to pick up games and organized events.

If your a basement gamer you don't need to follow this nor would you encounter as many crazy things as you would at a tournament but I would say at least 80% of 40k gamers use this as a starting point and is seen as the norm.

Like i said, As a T.O and a player who travels at the very minimum 4 times a year to major events its really nice to have a set of tournament rules that are a standard across the board.

Nobody is wrong here its really just a preference. Ether your a tournament player who likes to experience that type of atmosphere or your a guy/gal who likes sitting in a basement with some buds and roll dice.
 

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While I don't really want to get involved I would like to shed some light.

As a Tournament organizer myself, I follow the ITC format not because I feel their should be limits but more because it provides the majority of North American players (at the very least) with a standard which is no different then say Football (Euro). No matter where you go to play it, everyone knows what to expect to some degree. The ITC rules also provide a constantly evolving FAQ which GW has failed to keep up with which helps a lot of people when it comes to pick up games and organized events.

If your a basement gamer you don't need to follow this nor would you encounter as many crazy things as you would at a tournament but I would say at least 80% of 40k gamers use this as a starting point and is seen as the norm.

Like i said, As a T.O and a player who travels at the very minimum 4 times a year to major events its really nice to have a set of tournament rules that are a standard across the board.

Nobody is wrong here its really just a preference. Ether your a tournament player who likes to experience that type of atmosphere or your a guy/gal who likes sitting in a basement with some buds and roll dice.
How are you creating a baseline; are you suggesting GW doesn't?

Providing arbitrary changes 'creates' no baseline, it just moves goalposts. The rules are standard across the board in the 7th ed rulebook with the relevant supplements.



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U Mad Bro?
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How are you creating a baseline; are you suggesting GW doesn't?

Providing arbitrary changes 'creates' no baseline, it just moves goalposts. The rules are standard across the board in the 7th ed rulebook with the relevant supplements.
No the Rule book does not give you definitive rules through out... they are more guidelines. No where does it say anything along the lines of 'you must' do 'X' or 'Y'

Not to mention there is a lot of poor wording on specific rules that GW has not provided clarification for. The ITC has made polls that the community votes on and from there a FAQ is made / updated.

Think of the GW Rule book like an IKEA product. You look at it, you like it and you buy a box. Once you take the box home there is still some assembly required.

Or to use your "Goalpost" analogy, you are simply erecting "goalposts" and making sure everyone is playing on the same size nets. Whether a specific tournament wants to "move goalposts" is entirely up to them.
 

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Of course the rulebook gives you definitive rules. That is the purpose of rules, and it is why they are a) called the rules and b) in the section called the rules, and not the guidelines. I Ctrl+F'd my RULEBOOK for guidelines, guess what, no mention of them.

While there is poor wording on GW's part, and the FAQs may be lacking somewhat, you are doing nothing better, and to use your analogy, you're erecting the IKEA cupboard, then painting it a different colour.

And it's a fucking terrible analogy, tbh. It's like eggs and spoons because eggs fit in spoons and you can run with them and humpty dumpty NEW Ruleset.

The more you speak, the less faith I have in your "system".



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U Mad Bro?
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Of course the rulebook gives you definitive rules. That is the purpose of rules, and it is why they are a) called the rules and b) in the section called the rules, and not the guidelines. I Ctrl+F'd my RULEBOOK for guidelines, guess what, no mention of them.

While there is poor wording on GW's part, and the FAQs may be lacking somewhat, you are doing nothing better, and to use your analogy, you're erecting the IKEA cupboard, then painting it a different colour.

And it's a fucking terrible analogy, tbh. It's like eggs and spoons because eggs fit in spoons and you can run with them and humpty dumpty NEW Ruleset.

The more you speak, the less faith I have in your "system".
Dude... You buy an IKEA product which requires you to use your own tools (screw driver, wrench etc.) and you gotta put a little bit of sweat equity in and then you get your finished product. No different then how the ITC and the all of its participants view the 40k rule book when it comes to competitive play. You need to invest time and add a little bit to make it work.

Regardless of the Analogies I think you need to give your head a shake bud... the fumes in that basement you play in may be getting to you. Time to step into the light and see what everyone else is doing and try it out before criticizing. The core rules don't change, but the 'grey area' and evident problems get adjusted.

I would not expect someone who only plays in their basement to understand and thats totally cool, thats your choice and I can appreciate that I guess but the FAQ that the ITC puts out is appreciated by thousands of players. So when it comes to your "faith" in the system I would look at the majority and the majority certainly does not lack "Faith".
 

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Yay analogies!

I'm not sure I'd like a ruleset where the players decide the rules - that seems like the most played armies would have an advantage and some codex's would get hit harder with nerfs than others.
Its like buying a very nice cupboard from Ikea, but then being told that you couldn't use the cupboard as other people didn't like it as you have too much space in your cupboard. And you'd only get to use it if you saw the bottom off and gimp your cupboard.
No one wants a gimped cupboard. And if your cupboard is still nicer than other peoples, you have to take the handles off too :grin:

@Chaosftw
Where does the '80% of 40k gamers use this' figure come from?
I literally know no-one who uses it - have you got a link to the faq? I'd like to read it :)
Fyi, just to show my non-basement credentials :wink: I play at stores, houses and Warhammer world - strict raw at all times. All armies get their time in the sun that way :)
It just depends where the gw wind is pointing when the codex is written...
@bebe

I like the list - you have some nice choices within the constraints imposed :)
 
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