Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 60 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all... I have a bit of a quandry and I wanted to see if anyone could help me out.

I have several Monoliths and before I move forward with this I need to make sure I'm on the right path. I went online and ordered some 5" plastic disks and a 1" plastic rod. I also got a 1" rare Earth magnet and rubber spacer. Glued a large washer on the bottom of the Monolith for the magnet to attract to. When assembled it looks AWESOME. It sits about .75 to 1" off of the table.

Here's the problem. While gaming I was party to an argument between two players about his custom Necron Destroyer magnetic bases using the Magz toy. One player argued that you must use the bases provided by GW because of the height. The other player argued that it is fine to be higher but you cannot be shorter than the standard flying base.

I'm not worried about this argument because although I do plan to make my own bases for my Destroyers, I plan to make them the exact same heights as the GW ones.

My worry is with the Monolith.. Contrary to what many say, the Monolith is NOT provided with a flying base, though it has four "feet" on the bottom. I'd like to make my customer stand "compliant" so here's the question... If I assemble a Monolith, is considered to be skimming? ... or is it considered to be sitting on the ground?

If the answer is the former, then I plan to cut the "feet" off of the Monolith and replace them with a magnetic stand.

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,736 Posts
monoliths are always skimming if you want it higher makes a square base putting rods in each one of the feet it doesnt matter what height monos never gonna be hidden
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
496 Posts
they are both wrong

it doesnt matter how tall your base is at all

Skimmers cna never block or be blocked form veiw x3hey can be blocked but you cant shoot in that case)

they could be 3 feet of the table of you wanted
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,648 Posts
they are both wrong

it doesnt matter how tall your base is at all

Skimmers cna never block or be blocked form veiw x3hey can be blocked but you cant shoot in that case)

they could be 3 feet of the table of you wanted
Which edition of 40k are you playing? Is it 4th ed. perchance?

In 5th ed. we use what is called True Line of Sight. Skimmers affect line of sight like anything else in the game. A Monolith blocks line of sight because you can't see under it, if it is on a stand then you can see under it.

The hight of the base is very important. Making changes to a model for gaming advantage is not permitted in the rules, so you should consider carefully before adding any kind of base to the Monolith because it might be considered an illegal modification. Modelling it 3 feet off the table would certainly be considered cheating by anyone I know.

Skimmers always count as having stopped their movement and, effectively, landed, at the end of the movement phase. This is also something new to 5th ed. over 4th ed. - one used to be able to leave a skimmer hovering over terrain, but now you can't.

I think you might need to review your knowledge of skimmers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
496 Posts
never really played with or against them since 4th... so i guess i should XD

still... having a lith 3 feet above the table would just be epic

EDIT: also... if they are landing at the end of every movement (which i know liths dont o.o) then how do you plan to use TLoS for them o_O?


TLoS is such a retarded rule D:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Which edition of 40k are you playing? Is it 4th ed. perchance?

In 5th ed. we use what is called True Line of Sight. Skimmers affect line of sight like anything else in the game. A Monolith blocks line of sight because you can't see under it, if it is on a stand then you can see under it.

The hight of the base is very important. Making changes to a model for gaming advantage is not permitted in the rules, so you should consider carefully before adding any kind of base to the Monolith because it might be considered an illegal modification. Modelling it 3 feet off the table would certainly be considered cheating by anyone I know.

Skimmers always count as having stopped their movement and, effectively, landed, at the end of the movement phase. This is also something new to 5th ed. over 4th ed. - one used to be able to leave a skimmer hovering over terrain, but now you can't.

I think you might need to review your knowledge of skimmers.
Just did. After "reviewing [my] knowledge on skimmers" I found yet another A+ set of writing from GW.

On page 71 under "Moving Skimmers": "Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move - it cannot be left hovering in mid-air."

On the same page under "Shooting at Skimmers": "If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. If this is not possible ..., don't worry about it. The skimmer's anti-grav field is obviously still working and an immobilised skimmer will simply remain hovering in place..."

Ok... I think I get the gist of it now but the are pretty vague. Sorry *****, but you are flat out wrong here. My interpretation of these statements is that they are not "landed" at the end of the turn. They still float but they cannot end their turn higher than their "normal" floating level. In other words they can fly over models but must end their turn at the level they were at at the beginning of the movement phase. The problem is that there is nothing that says what the "normal" skimmer level is for the Monolith. You might think that the "feet" on the bottom of the Monolith denote the "skimmer" level but the codex clearly shows a large (at least 5") base and when I emailed GW about not receiving a base for my Monolith and they sent me small bases (like Gargoyles use). I wrote them again and they sent me larger bases (like Destroyers use). Nevermind, GW...

If the skimmer is immobilized (and the flying base can be removed) then you cannot fire under it. Otherwise it completely depends on true line of sight. (Not to imply that the line of sight rules on page 26 of 5E make any sense as they imply that you look through eyes of the model... which is kind of odd since facing doesn't matter in 5E... I guess they can turn around to fire but they can't crouch? LOL!)

I still want to create a magnetic base for my Monolith... and I still don't know what the correct height is. Thanks, GW. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
438 Posts
Just did. After "reviewing [my] knowledge on skimmers" I found yet another A+ set of writing from GW.

On page 71 under "Moving Skimmers": "Note that a skimmer must be set down on the table and left in place at the end of its move - it cannot be left hovering in mid-air."

On the same page under "Shooting at Skimmers": "If a skimmer is immobilised or wrecked, its base is removed, if possible. If this is not possible ..., don't worry about it. The skimmer's anti-grav field is obviously still working and an immobilised skimmer will simply remain hovering in place..."

Ok... I think I get the gist of it now but the are pretty vague. Sorry *****, but you are flat out wrong here. My interpretation of these statements is that they are not "landed" at the end of the turn. They still float but they cannot end their turn higher than their "normal" floating level. In other words they can fly over models but must end their turn at the level they were at at the beginning of the movement phase. The problem is that there is nothing that says what the "normal" skimmer level is for the Monolith. You might think that the "feet" on the bottom of the Monolith denote the "skimmer" level but the codex clearly shows a large (at least 5") base and when I emailed GW about not receiving a base for my Monolith and they sent me small bases (like Gargoyles use). I wrote them again and they sent me larger bases (like Destroyers use). Nevermind, GW...

If the skimmer is immobilized (and the flying base can be removed) then you cannot fire under it. Otherwise it completely depends on true line of sight. (Not to imply that the line of sight rules on page 26 of 5E make any sense as they imply that you look through eyes of the model... which is kind of odd since facing doesn't matter in 5E... I guess they can turn around to fire but they can't crouch? LOL!)

I still want to create a magnetic base for my Monolith... and I still don't know what the correct height is. Thanks, GW. :)
As the monolith is supplied with a base (per the GW website) you are required to use that base, or else gain consent from your opponents prior to the start of the game. Now typically this is not a huge deal if you're playing with your friends, but if you were to enter a tournament they are very strict about those sorts of things. The monolith says it comes with the Large Flying Base:




Your new flying base can not be taller than that. If it is, then it is defined as a violation. By modeling it higher than that base, you allow units to see under it that would not normally be able to. Imagine if an Eldar player suddenly mounted all his Wave Serpents and Grav Falcons on the flying base for a Valkyrie? Everything under the sun would be able to shoot underneath it.

And circling around to your argument, there is no defined hovering height for any skimmer at all. None. They are merely supplied with bases by GW so that they have a nifty floating appearance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
496 Posts
woot!

i wasnt wrong? o.o

True line of sight conflicts completely with the skimmer rules :D

the the 3 foot off the table lith idea lives on! (its hardly modeling for an advantage... since it basicly becomes a 200+ point teleporter that takes up a heavy slot and cant shoot because its out of range of everything o_O)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,461 Posts
Your new flying base can not be taller than that. If it is, then it is defined as a violation. By modeling it higher than that base, you allow units to see under it that would not normally be able to. Imagine if an Eldar player suddenly mounted all his Wave Serpents and Grav Falcons on the flying base for a Valkyrie? Everything under the sun would be able to shoot underneath it.
You realise any advantage is mutual right? Sure the Eldar player can see underneath, but so can you. I'd much rather be able to shoot at the sneaky Eldar, thanks to their generally low armour save :spiteful:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,410 Posts
woot!

i wasnt wrong? o.o

True line of sight conflicts completely with the skimmer rules :D

the the 3 foot off the table lith idea lives on! (its hardly modeling for an advantage... since it basicly becomes a 200+ point teleporter that takes up a heavy slot and cant shoot because its out of range of everything o_O)
A 3 foot off the table lith can't use its portal (you wouldn't be able to place models within 2" of the portal.) and NOTHING would ever be in range of the flux arc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
496 Posts
its 2" within the base isnt it o_O?

oh wait... you apply the multi level rules... x3

well tere we go a 3 foot off the table lith is not cheating dark, its just epiclolz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,648 Posts
You are just completely wrong PbC. The Monoliths I have bought in the past have NEVER been supplied with a base. If you look at the codex carefully you will see that the bases have been photoshopped in. They are not real bases.

Look at the back cover of the codex, or p45, or p35: NO BASE. The only indication of a base is on p39, which is very obviously faked. There are no official pictures of the Monolith that include a base.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,083 Posts
You are just completely wrong PbC. The Monoliths I have bought in the past have NEVER been supplied with a base. If you look at the codex carefully you will see that the bases have been photoshopped in. They are not real bases.

Look at the back cover of the codex, or p45, or p35: NO BASE. The only indication of a base is on p39, which is very obviously faked. There are no official pictures of the Monolith that include a base.
allow me to link you to their site:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440260a&prodId=prod1090227

it says it comes with a flying base. but it NEVER does. we all know this. but THEY say it does
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,648 Posts
Ok, I'm going to deal with this. Enough is enough. We can't have GW misleading so many people, who are far too easily led to begin with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,083 Posts
hahaha, not misleading me, DarkLove, just can see that its there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,314 Posts
You Cannot play your Monolith 3 feet off the table. You must you the base it is supplied with or gain your opponents consent.

The Monolith comes with a Large Flying base now so new Monoliths must be on those bases and old ones cannot be on any base.

Skimmers work perfectly with TLoS but people are misreading how the rule works. Skimmers do indeed land every turn, they land on their base, which is off the table. When it says you cannot leave them hovering is just so you don't leave them on top of models or tree or such like where the model could not fit.

Aramoro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
736 Posts
it is probably one of the most absurd rules arguments i've heard for a while.

obviously, i understand that this is a rules debate, and people want a finite answer, arguments being invoked are just plain weird. the simple truth of the matter is that the core rule book states that all models should be based on a base they are provided with or one bigger (as that is a disadvantage, even if it looks cooler), and putting a skimmer on a base taller than supplied with creates as many disadvantages as it does advantages. we've already mentioned that weapons will have a much smaller effective range, deploying troops will become harder and whilst your troops may be able to see underneath the vehicle to fire, they will equally be able to return fire.

i get that tournament play is an important driving force behind rules development, but it can't make up more than 5% of total play. in fact i doubt most gamers have ever attended a tournament. tournaments come with extraneous rules and caveats that aren't in the core rule book, and so really ought to be discussed on a specific basis, rather than generally.

ultimately, i can't see any net benefit to putting the vehicle on a taller base other than aesthetically. and any general worth their stripes will be able to adapt to new situations and circumstance. they won't just piss and moan that the enemy can suddenly see them.

so perhaps we should ask PbC where you intend on using this monolith most? if it is purely in friendly games, either as a pick up at you local GW, LFGS or club, or at home with friends, then it is absolutely not a problem. it doesn't contradict any rules and it doesn't offer any significant bonus. if you are intending on using it at a tournament, then that will depend on which? we would need to review the tournament specific rules.

Ok, I'm going to deal with this. Enough is enough. We can't have GW misleading so many people, who are far too easily led to begin with.
curiously, considering how easily led we all are, you haven't managed to convince a single person on this thread of the validity of your point.

more to the point, aren't we supposed to take our lead from GW when it comes to the rules of the game?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,648 Posts
curiously, considering how easily led we all are, you haven't managed to convince a single person on this thread of the validity of your point.

more to the point, aren't we supposed to take our lead from GW when it comes to the rules of the game?
If people have been led into a deep hole of shit, that they have been promised is honey, it can be hard to pull them out of it. Many of them will even resist being pulled out of the shit. That's people for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,314 Posts
obviously, i understand that this is a rules debate, and people want a finite answer, arguments being invoked are just plain weird. the simple truth of the matter is that the core rule book states that all models should be based on a base they are provided with or one bigger
Wrong Edition, try 5th Ed,

Aramoro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,648 Posts
Right, should be sorted by the end of the week. The web guys are a bit busy with the DE pages atm, but the Monolith correction is now on their to-do list. :victory:
 
1 - 20 of 60 Posts
Top