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from the text on ADB his site it seems that Aby want to rule mankind, but how ? what is his ambition with mankind, I can hardly imagine that he just wants to be the boss, or destroy mankind ?
Furthermore I am curious in how he sees his relationship with the Gods after he took over the throne, depends on what he sees as a future for mankind, I assume ADB his planned books will tell us more
 

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Bane of Empires
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Abbaddon doesn't win for one simple reason, he doesn't want to.
Abaddon wants nothing more than to topple the Emperor and claim the Imperium.

If the imperium gets weaker, so do the chaos God's. Khorn must have war. Nurgle needs a massive population to infect. Slanesh gets stronger through the imperial leadership living it up and the trillions "getting busy" tzeentch wants a eternal tug of war for power. It benefits the gods to fight an eternal war. The worst thing that could happen is for the war to end.
The Imperium is but one civilisation out of millions that have come and gone, there is nothing special about the Imperium in relation to any other galactic civilisation. The Chaos Gods are not that invested in humanity that they would go significantly out of their way to sustain the Emperor's realm.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on this very forum) that Abaddon has refused princehood because once you get elevated to that level you slowly start losing interest in the 'real world' and begin to mainly focus on the power struggle in the immaterium. Abaddon doesn't want to 'ascend' untill his work is complete.
That appeared in CSM Codex 3.5.

Since then however it seems to have become more likely that he simply has not been granted daemonhood by any of the gods because he is more useful to them as he is. As a mortal with ties to every other Chaos faction he is a serious threat to the Imperium. As a daemon prince he stands to lose a lot. It is also likely that none of the gods will risk losing the balance of power they've obtained with him in charge.

Most Chaos lords seek daemonhood for selfish reasons such as immortality or a god's personal favour. Abaddon is concerned with more physical pursuits, he wants to right a perceived wrong. Part of what makes him so damn dangerous is the fact that he has a cause, one that he's willing to cast an entire galaxy into flames to achieve.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I also believe daemonhood is not something you are given a choice with.
I initially thought as Serpion does above. But it seems (especially since AD-B's blog post on Abaddon) that he consciously refuses to ascend and thus become the pawn of one particular god (or of the warp in general). Whether he achieves this through sheer willpower or via some other privileged means is unknown, but I can't imagine many individuals could get away with refusing what the gods offer.

from the text on ADB his site it seems that Aby want to rule mankind, but how ? what is his ambition with mankind, I can hardly imagine that he just wants to be the boss, or destroy mankind ?
Furthermore I am curious in how he sees his relationship with the Gods after he took over the throne, depends on what he sees as a future for mankind, I assume ADB his planned books will tell us more
For years, the lore (particularly the codex entries on Abaddon) has referred to an "Empire of Chaos" that Abaddon intends to build upon the ashes of the Imperium. His intention thus seems to be to rule Mankind as the second Emperor.
 

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Abbaddon doesn't win for one simple reason, he doesn't want to. If the imperium gets weaker, so do the chaos God's. Khorn must have war. Nurgle needs a massive population to infect. Slanesh gets stronger through the imperial leadership living it up and the trillions "getting busy" tzeentch wants a eternal tug of war for power. It benefits the gods to fight an eternal war. The worst thing that could happen is for the war to end.
I agree that the chaos gods don't really want/need ultimate victory, but this is where their goals differ from Abbadon. The gods want humans driven mad by terror, brutalizing each other and debasing themselves to chaos. The power games they play are all part of the dance of chaos - corrupting mortals is more interesting than dominating them militarily. Abbadon however is driven by more human ambitions - power, hate, greed, an insatiable desire to subjugate the weak etc.
Thus the chaos powers facilitate his attacks on the Imperium in order to further their own influence, knowing he will never actually 'win'.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I would argue that Abaddon does want to win, but that for the reasons stated the Chaos Gods have a vested interest in making sure that he doesn't win and destroy the Imperium. So yeah, they actively undermine their chosen champion. Given their self-contradictory nature and inherent squabbling, it's not all that far of a stretch.
 

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Bane of Empires
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I would argue that Abaddon does want to win, but that for the reasons stated the Chaos Gods have a vested interest in making sure that he doesn't win and destroy the Imperium. So yeah, they actively undermine their chosen champion. Given their self-contradictory nature and inherent squabbling, it's not all that far of a stretch.
Abaddon certainly wants to win, that much is a given.

However, I disagree that the Chaos Gods are actively undermining The Despoiler to prevent his triumph. Firstly, their interest in mortal affairs is fleeting at best. Secondly, the destruction of the Imperium and death of the Emperor would surely be a good thing (or at least certainly not a bad thing) for them?
 

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Personally, I still can't take Abaddon seriously. If you need THAT MANY retcons just to get people to believe your reputation as a gigantic failure may not be ENTIRELY deserved it's time to just give up. The worst thing of it all is his whining about Horus... which is just bad form as Horus got to Terra within ten years, as opposed to Abaddon who has yet to manage it in ten millennia. Ah well, I suppose Horus is a hard example to live up to when your arms keep falling off...
 

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Personally, I still can't take Abaddon seriously. If you need THAT MANY retcons just to get people to believe your reputation as a gigantic failure may not be ENTIRELY deserved it's time to just give up. The worst thing of it all is his whining about Horus... which is just bad form as Horus got to Terra within ten years, as opposed to Abaddon who has yet to manage it in ten millennia. Ah well, I suppose Horus is a hard example to live up to when your arms keep falling off...
Not sure if you're trolling or just hadn't read the rest of the thread.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Personally, I still can't take Abaddon seriously. If you need THAT MANY retcons just to get people to believe your reputation as a gigantic failure may not be ENTIRELY deserved it's time to just give up. The worst thing of it all is his whining about Horus... which is just bad form as Horus got to Terra within ten years, as opposed to Abaddon who has yet to manage it in ten millennia. Ah well, I suppose Horus is a hard example to live up to when your arms keep falling off...
I'll echo what hailene said - are you being serious?

But also, what retcons? :wacko:
 

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However, I disagree that the Chaos Gods are actively undermining The Despoiler to prevent his triumph. Firstly, their interest in mortal affairs is fleeting at best. Secondly, the destruction of the Imperium and death of the Emperor would surely be a good thing (or at least certainly not a bad thing) for them?
I agree that they would not be undermining him at the current setting (the beginning of the 13th BC), but whenever the crimson kicks off, I would say the situation changes, from the moment one of the four (5 ?) thinks that the relationship with the four is no longer balanced, that could be perceived as a serious danger, by all means they will intervene and undermining Abaddon is certainly an option, e.g. if Khorn were to take the upper hand the other gods will intervene by all means,
 

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Bane of Empires
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I agree that they would not be undermining him at the current setting (the beginning of the 13th BC), but whenever the crimson kicks off, I would say the situation changes, from the moment one of the four (5 ?) thinks that the relationship with the four is no longer balanced, that could be perceived as a serious danger, by all means they will intervene and undermining Abaddon is certainly an option, e.g. if Khorn were to take the upper hand the other gods will intervene by all means,
I'm not saying that one particular god (or two or three) would never attempt to undermine Abaddon if his wars were directly elevating a rival god to supremacy. AD-B's article touches on this when it talks about The Despoiler being kingmaker between the Chaos Gods. If Abaddon (and by extension his legions) dedicated himself to a single god, say Khorne, then Khorne would be elevated to a position of supremacy and thus the other gods would likely actively attempt to undermine Abaddon. However, because Abaddon refuses to become the slave of a single patron god there would be no reason why the Chaos Gods would actively undermine him in the way you are suggesting, unless the destruction of the Imperium would hinder them - which I don't believe it would. On the other hand, as AD-B's article suggests...

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.
...if Abaddon succeeds the Emperor and lords over Mankind, what can the Chaos Gods offer to entice him with? Nothing.

Though I don't know much that would matter by that point. With the Emperor gone, humanity would surely be more at the mercy of the gods than of Abaddon? In that scenario Abaddon would still be kingmaker, but having achieved his single-minded purpose of supplanting the Emperor, how much would he care? Does he really intend to rule Mankind as Emperor? Would he finally succumb to daemonhood? Or would he just want to see the galaxy burn?
 

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...if Abaddon succeeds the Emperor and lords over Mankind, what can the Chaos Gods offer to entice him with? Nothing.
from that perspective, does Abaddon get any love from malal
I cannot imagine that if Abaddon takes over the imperium, they eye of terror has been enlarged, the warp rift at the emperial palace is open again, demons and chaos are omnipresent in the galaxy he can just say, piss of now chaos I no longer need you ?
It would indeed make the character Abaddon stronger if there would be a vision on what he wants to do with the empirium if he takes over, I guess that is one of the main challenges ADB faces, just being evil is too simple
 

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Well after all the back and forth banter can we all agree on the sole fact Abaddon has a very powerful footing and probably wants to invade the Imperium of Man till there is nothing left. I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.
 

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Bane of Empires
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from that perspective, does Abaddon get any love from malal
I cannot imagine that if Abaddon takes over the imperium, they eye of terror has been enlarged, the warp rift at the emperial palace is open again, demons and chaos are omnipresent in the galaxy he can just say, piss of now chaos I no longer need you ?
It would indeed make the character Abaddon stronger if there would be a vision on what he wants to do with the empirium if he takes over, I guess that is one of the main challenges ADB faces, just being evil is too simple
I wasn't suggesting he would be in a position to simply tell Chaos to piss off. But once Abaddon has won the Long War, what reason would there be for him to need their patronage?

As AD-B's article suggests, a win for Abaddon may well be a loss for Chaos in the sense that the greatest Chaos warlord would no longer need (or perhaps want) the aid of the gods which would thus reduce their hold over him. And if the gods have absolutely no bargaining chips, he who has the greatest mortal army in existence could become a potential threat to them - especially in his role as kingmaker. That's one way of looking at it anyway.

I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.
I wholeheartedly disagree with that one.
 

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I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.
To quote Child-of-the-Emperor: I wholeheartedly disagree (so looks like no, we can't all agree on that)

Angron's definitely a good example against your train of thought.
 

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I think we can also all agree that the Primarch's are much more powerful than he is, and that they would easily out-do him in an attempt to crush the Imperium of Man.
In terms of raw strength or raw power I would probably agree with you but in terms of influence and attempting to crush the Imperium of Man Abaddon easily has the edge.
 

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Allying with Chaos was a strategic mistake. If Abaddon conquers the Imperium, he rules over an empire of Chaos. Who rules Chaos? Not Abaddon. All those oh-so-obsequious daemons won't be so anymore now that Abaddon has served his purpose. Abaddon will have scant time to enjoy his "victory".
 

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Bane of Empires
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If Abaddon conquers the Imperium, he rules over an empire of Chaos. Who rules Chaos? Not Abaddon. All those oh-so-obsequious daemons won't be so anymore now that Abaddon has served his purpose. Abaddon will have scant time to enjoy his "victory".
Depends how much you buy into Abaddon being the 'king maker' I suppose.
 

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I don't know how you don't see it. The Emperor tried to warn Horus but he was insane at the time. Chaos does not share power. If Abbaddon wins, he's a dead man. If he refuses daemonhood, they'll kill him after stripping him of their power. If he takes their gift, then he becomes a puppet like the primarchs. There's no instance of him being able to be independent from them. His victory would destroy the warp gates at Cadia and the warp gate in the dungeon. Chaos would have free reign to basically turn the solar system into another EOT at the LEAST. After that he's fucked.


He rules the legions, unlike Horus, through the patronage of the gods making the primarchs stay out of his way and letting him rally their sons. So many of them have been corrupted in high positions that if he were to rebel, the daemon astartes and the possessed would cripple his forces. Champions like Typhon, Kharn, and Lucius and the entire Word Bearer legion would secede from Abbaddon or try to kill him. Believe me, if he wins and tries to dance to his own tune, he'd be dead within a century.
 

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Bane of Empires
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If Abaddon topples the Imperium and forges his "Empire of Chaos". The entire galaxy (or the majority of it) gets swallowed by the expanding Eye of Terror and becomes a warp/reality overlap (unless Eldar legends concerning the death of reality altogether are to be taken literally). The Chaos Gods couldn't manifest themselves into this amalgamation of realms, they would remain solely in the warp and thus the current situation in the Eye of Terror would just be played out across the galaxy. At present, Abaddon effectively dominates the Eye of Terror because he commands the largest and most powerful armed force within it's boundaries. His hordes are so powerful than AD-B has suggested he is the king-maker of the gods - he has the power to make one god more powerful than all others by simply dedicating himself to that god.

If the 13th Black Crusade succeeds and Abaddon brings his "Empire of Chaos" to fruition, this situation will be the same - only played out across the whole galaxy. He would lord over the greatest army in the galaxy, and as such would still potentially be the king-maker (he would only have to dedicate himself and his hordes to one god, and that god would reign supreme). After the Imperium collapses, each Chaos God would likely try to lure Abaddon to their cause or attempt to undermine him. After all, submerging the galaxy in the warp, killing the Emperor and gaining the allegiance of Abaddon would be the ultimate victory for one Chaos God. Abaddon is the Chaos Gods' greatest weapon, yet probably their greatest source of apprehension.

Believe me, if he wins and tries to dance to his own tune, he'd be dead within a century.
I suppose that depends. The Chaos Gods are inherently opposed to one another. They would all have to agree and act in unison to bring Abaddon down. Otherwise, if one or two (or even three) gods act against him, they would effectively just push him into the arms of the remaining god(s) - thus giving that/those god(s) a gargantuan advantage in the Great Game. I don't think they would all agree to act in unison to destroy him because he could give 1 of them such a huge advantage in the Great Game, and his continued existence would be worth the risk for each of them. I imagine, if Abaddon ascends the Throne of Terra, the Chaos Gods would continue to fight over him as they do now, only that they no longer have anything to tempt him with, and how he would react is anyone's guess.
 

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I've always wondered in what sense of the word, the Chaos Gods have given him power. I think its fair that his biggest strength is the influence and sway of chaos forces to his cause. And though he may have some Chaos Gifts, weapons and so forth, I've been always skeptical of how much Chaos power can really be bestowed on him. After all, he is just an Astartes. He is no Primarch who would be able to physically accept more corruption before its body gave out. The Chaos Gods have also been known to be irresponsible with their gifts, and as such, I'm surprised he hasn't turned to a spawn yet.
 
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