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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey all, a little input from the forum:

I have seen many posts or comments saying that the C'Tan should be moved to Apocalypse only games.

As a Necron fan.....I agree.

The C'Tan are gods. Gods more ancient and destructive than even the Chaos Gods they were around to see the Chaos Gods, yes even Grandfather Nurgle, being born from the lesser psychic races created by the Old Ones.......the C'Tan were born BEFORE the Old Ones, the race that created the Eldar. Their fluff has them laying waste to entire star systems, wiping worlds clean of all life in an instant.

In game terms, the C'Tan have been relegated to being stronger than a Land Raider. In games, I have seen a Devastator squad kill a Nightbringer. Nightbringer: his fluff gives him credit as placing his own image in the genetic memory of all races (cept Orks!) so they fear death. Man was so scared of the image of the Nightbringer they gave death his persona: Reaper. Should an infantry squad really be able to kill a God? Should a Imperial Guardsman be able to kill the Emperor? No. So why the down grade of the C'Tan.

These beings should be instant game winners. Not huge targets killed easily when all firepower is directed against them. Either give the C'Tan extra abilites they should have, or move them to a version of 40K where better rules for them could fit in.

Give the Necrons more choices to be a full army, maybe even stay in line with the Egyptian theme. Boost the Necrons themselves, or fix their Gods.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I doubt people would play Necron players with them in their lists if that were the case.
I agree. Thats why I think they should be placed in Apocalypse. That way it would be better balanced to handle enhanced C'Tan. I misspoke, maybe not instant, but def. game changing.
 

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i thought that the models where supposed to be an avatar of some sort, more a portion of the essence of the C'tan than the actual C'Tan themselves
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Not really. Its a necrodermis skin, which the C'Tan condenses his power into and manifests itself for a corporeal form. So Nightbringer is really in that body. Maybe the actual model is supposed to represent a portion of the C'Tan, but the codex kind of gives you the feeling of it really being them.
 

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I don't think they should be apoc only. They're not particularly fast, highly expensive. The games in which most people would take them are games in which they can be dealt with 2000+
 

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I agree. Thats why I think they should be placed in Apocalypse. That way it would be better balanced to handle enhanced C'Tan. I misspoke, maybe not instant, but def. game changing.
I think that since they really are gods they should be placed at the height of the Emperor and removed from the game completely
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm also ok with that. I just want them to be true to the fluff. As you said, the C'Tan should be equal or stronger than the Emperor. The Emperor isn't in the game. They shouldn't be either. GW just needs to fix their fluff, one way or the other.
 

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Disciple of Change
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I think that since they really are gods they should be placed at the height of the Emperor and removed from the game completely
Unless I read wrong, isn't t3h Emprah on life support, and incapable of doing much of anything anyway?
 

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Baron Spikey and CotE seem to have remained absent so far, so let me beat them to the punch.

First, I have to say that the c`tan are not necessarily more powerful than the Chaos Gods. In fact, I would rate them as being a fair bit weaker, at least in terms of raw power. The prime advantage they have over the ruinous powers is that they exist physically, and are able to affect things directly, something the likes of Khorne or Tzeentch can not do.

Now, fluffwise, the c`tan are quite uber, far more powerful than their current codex profile suggests.

I`ll give my example of how I would write the Nightbringer:

WS---BS---S---T---W---I---A---Ld---Sv
-9----5---10---9---8---6---8---10---2+/3+

Points would be huge, somewhere like 1000+. He would also have a plethora of extra rules, allowing leadership tricks, extra attacks, immunity to some weapons, perhaps even some sort of apoc formation.

On the note of game changing, I would say absolutely. The current codex versions as 13illfred said are better used to represent beefy Necron Lords, at least from a storytelling point of view.

As to their actual power limits in regards to fluff... Bear in mind that they can be destroyed. According to history, there were thousands of these guys over the course of the war in heaven, and they were whittled down to four (though of interest is the fact that the only ones to succeed in killing a c`tan are actually other c`tan). From this, we can assume that their power is limited to a reasonable degree.

In short, yes to apoc only, but not game wreckingly good. At least on par with the daemon lords (which they kind of already are).


Also, as a fellow necron player, I too would welcome any expansion on the necron/c`tan fluff. It seems that from mentions in newer codexes, the character of the necrons is going to alter a little.
 

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Right I've got ateensy bit of a hangover so don't expect anything too profound...

The C'tan were/are at a level below that of the Chaos Gods, how do I know this?
Well the Eldar Gods were consumed by Slaanesh but the mightiest of the Eldar Deities, Khaine, couldn't be slain outright and instead was torn assunder, his essence scattered.

In the War in Heaven Khaine performed a similar feat against the Nightbringer, who is considered one of the most powerful of the C'tan, it doesn't take an genius to realise that Chaos Gods>Eldar Gods & Eldar Gods>Star Gods then obviously Chaos Gods>Star Gods.

I couldn't really comment with any certainty regarding the power difference between the most puissant Daemon Lords and the Yngir, but I doubt the likes of Doombreed would be an easy kill for the C'tan.


Right I'm off to drink a pint of aspirin and sleep till judgment day...
 

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In the War in Heaven Khaine performed a similar feat against the Nightbringer, who is considered one of the most powerful of the C'tan, it doesn't take an genius to realise that Chaos Gods>Eldar Gods & Eldar Gods>Star Gods then obviously Chaos Gods>Star Gods.
My thinking precisely. The C'tan are not more powerful than the chaos gods. They may have been meant to be before major fan backlash put the chaos gods on top again, but currently the C'tan's power doesn't hold a candle to the chaos gods. Nor are they necessarily older, as the nature of the warp means that the chaos gods existed even before their conception; time has n meaning in the Warp.
 

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its over 900,000!

sorry couldnt resist :)
i personaly hate the ctan its not fair how they take invulnerable saves away
 

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Their power is a combination of several things.

They have direct control over their specific "sect" of Necrons. Necrons are normally autonomous but they accept control of the C'tan in charge of them. Part of the C'tans power is in his ability to seamlessly control entire vast armies of Necrons.

As for his personal power, the Living Metal shell is more a siphon or conduit for the C'tan to funnel his power into the corporeal dimension. He does, essentially, "possess" the shell, but it acts as a bottleneck. The avatar is not as powerful as the actual C'tan as this is not its normal state of existence, however, unlike Daemons, their form allows them to operate in such a fashion indefinitely. C'tan, while not technically originating in another dimension like Daemons do, operate on an etherial level, more akin to spirits while not encased in their shells. Upon entreing these bodies, they gain the power to impose their will on the world around them.

C'tan are far more powerful than the game would suggest- The Nightbringer is so powerful, his mere presence can cause those around him to kill themselves just to escape him. They would be much better suited to apocalypse games than standard 40k.

I do not support their removal however- The Emperor and Chaos Lords are not included in the game not because they are simply not allowed, but because these entities do not actively participate in the battles their respective forces wage- the Chaos Lords stay in the warp, and the Emperor is entombed in necrotic comatose upon the Golden Throne. The C'tan, however, take direct intervention in battles on a very regular basis.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Iron Angel for the clarification. If you read the Necron codex, the C'Tan are far stronger and older than the Chaos Gods EXAMPLE:

from the Necrons Codex pg 26

"The growing pains of the Young Races threw the untapped energies of the warp into disorder. War, pain and destruction were mirrored in the bottomless depths of the sea of souls. The maelstrom of spirits unleashed in the carnage coalesced into the previously formless energies of the warp. Older warp entities became terrifying predators....."

further down:

"Most proficient of these horrors were the Enslavers, beings whose ability to dominate the Young Races and create their own portals with transmuted psykers brought them forth in even greater numbers."

It appears to me from reading those paragraphs, the C'Tan are at least as old if not older than the Chaos Gods. Also, at the very least, the Chaos Gods may have been around before the first paragraph, but they didn't become what they are now until the war between the Old Ones and the C'Tan/Necrons, IMO.

As far as power.....it was already pointed out that the C'Tan one fights in the game are but avatars of the full power of a C'Tan. At the very least, a Nightbringer vs. Khorne battle would be a stalemate.
 

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In order of oldness, these are the races/entities which we can cleanly define the ages.

C'tan>Old Ones>Necrontyr>Orks>Eldar>Humans>Warp gods>Tau.

The warp gods are actually some of the youngest entities in the galaxy. The whole timecube argument saying Warp Gods always existed only applies if we are measuring time within the warp. However, in this dimension where time is actually relative and relevant, we can acutely define the period of time in which the Warp Gods manifested in relation to this realm- The one that matters in a historical sense.

Whether they are more or less powerful than Warp Gods is uncertain. Warp gods are extraordinarily powerful, but only within the actual warp. They rely on their minions to do their bidding elsewhere- Much like the C'tan in spirit form requiring Necrons to do their bidding in the corporeal universe. I'm sure that bringing a Warp God into the physical realm within a construct would severely cripple its power, very similar to the effect on a C'tan. In the etherial universe, C'tan are unbeatable powers, devouring souls and generally being unable to be destroyed by anything short of another C'tan- Much like the Warp Gods in the Warp. The two are completely anologious to the other in terms of power. many people seem to forget the external shell they inhabit seriously handicaps them in terms of power, but is the only way they can actually interact with the physical realm. Destruction of said avatar unleashes a brief moment of their true ability, where their spirit still momentarily remains in this realm before it is defaulted back to its spirit form, resulting in a massive explosion that more often than not kills everything around it. The C'tan then travels through the ether again until it deigns to reinhabit another shell.

As for the Slavers, there are many theories on them, and so little about them is known that not even I can juxtapose of their origins. However, judging by the time of their appearance, it is safe to say the C'tan beginning to win the war played a primary role in their appearance, if not their existence. From their description, you might even be able to call the Slavers the first Daemons, since their actions and abilities are not dissimilar to those of modern Daemons- They are able to use Psykers to create portals into this realm, and to inhabit and mutate them to their own purposes. Another possibility is that they were a last-ditch effort to create a race that could enter the etherial plane to devour the C'tan, which backfired drastically, creating a super-warp-proficient race that instead turned on its masters. In the end, its impossible to know, as the only source of information on their existence is archived in the Black Library.
 

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Hmm I always thought the warp gods with the exception of Slaanesh where more or less always in existence, but are unable to manifest in the earlier periods do to not being strong enough. (Those extra few millennium of sentient's dying really makes the difference.) After all the warp has according to 40k fiction has been in existence for as long as sentient races have. So in actuality chaos entities have existed far before any of the modern races, they would have started to exist the moment the very first sentient race died. I mean come the hell on to say the warp gods are younger then the c'tan is naive, since it has been well documented in the sometimes contradictory 40k fiction that the warp itself is more or less the place where all souls/mind/psychic fragment go when almost any entity dies.

Now the chaos gods we know today may not be older then say the old ones or the earliest Necon's, but we know for a fact they are older then the eldar because the youngest of them almost destroyed the Eldar at its birth meaning any similar occurrence would have been well documented by the Eldar, since it would have been the kind of thing you would have documented well.
 

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Khorne, if manifested, would destroy everything.
 

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In order of oldness, these are the races/entities which we can cleanly define the ages.

C'tan>Old Ones>Necrontyr>Orks>Eldar>Humans>Warp gods>Tau.

.
Wait...I thought the Necrontyr came into existance before/at the same time as the Old Ones? clarification please?
 
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