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JUGGERNUT
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So, assuming the information we have about the Crimson Slaughter codex is true (and it seems to be), at bare minimum, one CSM:CS Sorc will have access to Divination. Presumably, we can buy ML 3 and roll all of them in Divination with an unmarked Sorc.

I believe that this one option has made our opportunities to transport units of 20+ models more worthwhile.

I'm really excited about Sorc(s) having access to Divination, because it opens up a lot of opportunities that an allied Tzherald isn't capable of.

For one, the Divination Sorc can actually join a CSM unit.

Here are some musings I've been mulling over this morning:

Prescience: Doesn't take much imagination. Re-roll hits on anything you want.

Forewarning: Sweet! Suddenly huge chunks of that unit of 35 Cultists aren't disappearing quite so fast.

Foreboding: Oh my GODS I'm excited about this one! Attach the Sorc to a unit of 20 CSM with 2 Flamers + CCW and dare anyone to charge you. DARE THEM, I SAY! Replace the Flamers with Plasma if something tough is doing the charging. Meltas for walkers.

A unit of 30 Cultists with autoguns and 3 flamers would also be pretty fun, but they'd miss a bunch of shots and S3 wouldn't cause too many wounds, but... that's still a ton of dice, which are always suspenseful to roll.

Or, fuck, think about Havocs or Chosen. 4 autocannons, 4+ plasma, 4+ meltas... "Hello, Imperial Dick-Knight, you wanna use that strength D chainsword? Eat heat! Oh... I rolled 4 1s... damnit!"

Misfortune: Cool, whatever. Re-roll those saves, sucker. This could be very fun, especially on large units.

Perfect Timing: YES. FUCK YOU, TAU! Cover-ignoring autocannons from Havocs + Quad Gun if used defensively. Or shit, 4 Lascannons that are guaranteed to fuck up a vehicle with no interference from intervening models or cover. Attached to that unit of 20 CSM rapid-firing bolters/plasma, you're gonna clear mid-field objectives pretty handily if you can pull off the proper range/position.

Really, there have got to be other very useful ways of using this power. Obliterators!

Precognition: Anything that makes the Sorc more survivable and effective in combat is a good thing. It's not Iron Arm or Warp Speed, but those re-rolls to wound are crucial with a Force Weapon and a relatively low number of attacks, I'd think. If you're facing a foe with equal Initiative, re-rolling saves is awesome, too. Especially since that 4+ Sigil of Corruption save always seems to fail...

Scrier's Gaze: I really like the sound of being able to have more control over when my Heldrakes fly onto the board.


Then, you can STILL ally in a Daemon army with a Tzherald for another Divination psyker (at least prescience) + Grimoire of True Names. Now, we too have the ability to give the Daemons in our army a 2+ Invulnerable save, if you're lucky enough to roll Forewarning. Suddenly, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is an even bigger rape-machine than before, and doesn't have to worry about only being Toughness 5 and getting insta-killed by Power Fists and DCCW. You don't get the Black Mace, but there's got to be a suitable weapon (there better be...) to arm a DP with from the CS list of artifacts. Worried about your Heldrake getting shot down by enemy aircraft? No rerolls, but 2+ Invuln is juuuuust fine. A unit of 20 scoring Possessed with a 2+ sounds very nice, too.


What crazy stuff can you guys think of that you'll be able to do now with this new option?
 

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JUGGERNUT
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Er, I would expect not.

If I understand how these things work, Black Legion is a separate CSM army than a standard codex CSM army, but they use units from the same base codex, with a different set of artifacts and a smattering of unique rules. They're Battle Bros with each other and Daemons. Probably the same story with Crimson Slaughter.
 

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It makes sense that CSM should get divination. The sorcs from Prospero had a sect that delved into divination called the Corvidae. For some unknown reason we don't have those psychic powers currently. Perhaps they all died out when Prospero was burning.
 

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Ally in crimson slaughter and boom divination. Hell if they are still battle brothers then the sorc can jion any unit in your core force
 

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Jeez, move over Grey Knights the new bad boys are in town. I better hope I don't have to play CCSM anytime soon. Wonder how they would size up against my wierdboyz?
 

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So, assuming the information we have about the Crimson Slaughter codex is true (and it seems to be), at bare minimum, one CSM:CS Sorc will have access to Divination. Presumably, we can buy ML 3 and roll all of them in Divination with an unmarked Sorc.

I believe that this one option has made our opportunities to transport units of 20+ models more worthwhile.

I'm really excited about Sorc(s) having access to Divination, because it opens up a lot of opportunities that an allied Tzherald isn't capable of.

For one, the Divination Sorc can actually join a CSM unit.

Here are some musings I've been mulling over this morning:

Prescience: Doesn't take much imagination. Re-roll hits on anything you want.

Forewarning: Sweet! Suddenly huge chunks of that unit of 35 Cultists aren't disappearing quite so fast.

Foreboding: Oh my GODS I'm excited about this one! Attach the Sorc to a unit of 20 CSM with 2 Flamers + CCW and dare anyone to charge you. DARE THEM, I SAY! Replace the Flamers with Plasma if something tough is doing the charging. Meltas for walkers.

A unit of 30 Cultists with autoguns and 3 flamers would also be pretty fun, but they'd miss a bunch of shots and S3 wouldn't cause too many wounds, but... that's still a ton of dice, which are always suspenseful to roll.

Or, fuck, think about Havocs or Chosen. 4 autocannons, 4+ plasma, 4+ meltas... "Hello, Imperial Dick-Knight, you wanna use that strength D chainsword? Eat heat! Oh... I rolled 4 1s... damnit!"

Misfortune: Cool, whatever. Re-roll those saves, sucker. This could be very fun, especially on large units.

Perfect Timing: YES. FUCK YOU, TAU! Cover-ignoring autocannons from Havocs + Quad Gun if used defensively. Or shit, 4 Lascannons that are guaranteed to fuck up a vehicle with no interference from intervening models or cover. Attached to that unit of 20 CSM rapid-firing bolters/plasma, you're gonna clear mid-field objectives pretty handily if you can pull off the proper range/position.

Really, there have got to be other very useful ways of using this power. Obliterators!

Precognition: Anything that makes the Sorc more survivable and effective in combat is a good thing. It's not Iron Arm or Warp Speed, but those re-rolls to wound are crucial with a Force Weapon and a relatively low number of attacks, I'd think. If you're facing a foe with equal Initiative, re-rolling saves is awesome, too. Especially since that 4+ Sigil of Corruption save always seems to fail...

Scrier's Gaze: I really like the sound of being able to have more control over when my Heldrakes fly onto the board.


Then, you can STILL ally in a Daemon army with a Tzherald for another Divination psyker (at least prescience) + Grimoire of True Names. Now, we too have the ability to give the Daemons in our army a 2+ Invulnerable save, if you're lucky enough to roll Forewarning. Suddenly, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is an even bigger rape-machine than before, and doesn't have to worry about only being Toughness 5 and getting insta-killed by Power Fists and DCCW. You don't get the Black Mace, but there's got to be a suitable weapon (there better be...) to arm a DP with from the CS list of artifacts. Worried about your Heldrake getting shot down by enemy aircraft? No rerolls, but 2+ Invuln is juuuuust fine. A unit of 20 scoring Possessed with a 2+ sounds very nice, too.


What crazy stuff can you guys think of that you'll be able to do now with this new option?
Just admit it, you were tiping left handed due to "boner management":grin:
'Cause i'm doing it right now at the mere idea of native chaos divination...
 

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mmh a divination sorc inside a unit is good no doubts but 25pts is not really cheap and if it's just for 1 psyker in the army you cant really plan on getting the power you want.
There are only 2powers that only apply to the psyker unit and only one is very good but only in a unit with ranged, low ap weapons...hardly something you can plan on useing imo.

What I mean is that those 25pts you pay only make a difference instead of an allied tzherald if you roll the ignore cover power and put him with something like lascannon havocs or oblits, it's good but I'm not sure it's 25 pts good tbh, unless if you dont bring daemon allies obviously, in that case it's just fantastic :)
 

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JUGGERNUT
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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Well, I wish I could disagree. I think Divination should simply be available for all CS psykers to roll on, but it doesn't appear that's the case based on the rumors. Won't be much longer until we know for sure, but Chaos rules are always... "funny" to say the least, so I bet it will be 1 per army with a 25 point tax.

I'll still pay that tax, but maybe once in a while poor little baby CSM can get something new that's good without being taxed for it in points beyond the base cost of the unit. Be'lakor you say? Cypher? Shhhh, I only use details that support my whining!

Having 1 Psyker with Divination may not be the end-all, but it's better than 0! I usually include Be'lakor as an HQ in my armies, so Telepathy is covered. No matter what powers I roll with a Divination Sorc, he's probably going to end up with a squad of Cultists, Havocs, Obliterators, or CSM. I'll always have at least 2 of those in an army, so he can be placed appropriately. Though, if I'm taking my Juggerlord, I'd have to choose between the two psykers, and although Be'lakor is double the points cost of a level 3 Sorc with all the trimmings, he's far more reliable and survivable. I'll use a Divination Sorc somehow, damnit! I spent 54 bucks on the Crimson Slaughter codex, I'm gonna get SOME use out of it!

I did write a list, assuming 25 point cost and only 1 Divination Sorc. Allied with Daemons: Quick Disclaimer: It may appear as though I'm trying to run a Screamerstar, but that wasn't the point of this list. I'd rather buff other elements of my army than have the stupid Tzheralds/Screamers do all the killing. That might be the way to win, but not my preference. I'd probably roll lots of perils and screw it up anyway. Nah, I prefer my cheese dragon-flavored.

2498 points

HQ: CSM:

Be'lakor
Sorcerer: Mastery Level 3, Divination Relic, Spell Familiar, Sigil of Corruption, Force Maul

HQ: Daemons:

Tzherald: Mastery Level 3, Disc of Tzeentch
Tzherald: Mastery Level 3, Disc of Tzeentch, Exalted Reward (Grimoire)

TROOPS: CSM:

Cultists x20
Cultists x20
Cultists x10
Chaos Space Marines x20: 2x Plasma Gun

TROOPS: Daemons:

Daemonettes x20
Pink Horrors x10

FAST ATTACK: CSM:

Heldrake w/ Baleflamer
Heldrake w/ Baleflamer

FAST ATTACK: Daemons:

Screamers x6

HEAVY SUPPORT: CSM:

Havocs x5: 4 Autocannons
Obliterators x3: Mark of Nurgle

FORTIFICATIONS:

Aegis Defense Line: Comms Relay
 

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Rattlehead
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I don't think it's a very good change in terms of the game (because all Imperials, CSM, Daemons, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau all either have Divination natively or have very easy access to it, leaving just Orks, Necrons and Tyranids left out), but it's certainly a very powerful tool for Chaos. The Forewarning/Mark of Tzeentch combo is stupidly good on Obliterators and Mark of Tzeentch in general gets far more powerful as you can get 12 rolls on Divination at 2000pts from your Primary Detachments alone. That's fairly reasonable odds of getting Forewarning at least twice, so you can build around the Mark of Tzeentch knowing that you're pretty likely to be rocking a 3++.

Pretty much all the powers in Divination are good, and Chaos get a lot of use out of the otherwise-shitty Precognition on a Daemon Prince. I can see a 3++ re-rollable Prince being a thing - the extra Warptime is just icing on the cake. Chaos also get more use out of Prescience due to their low-accuracy, high-damage options such as the Forgefiend. Forgefiends with Ectoplasma may well be a thing if you can twin-link them to neutralise Gets Hot! and the Hades Autocannon gets a significant boost in efficiency from Prescience.
 

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Anyone upset that the masters of all sorcery, Thousand Nones, now suck in psychic power compared to Black Legion (Mastery level 3 super artifact bomb) and Crimson Slaughter (Fake Corviade)?
 

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Assuming this is true (I'm not getting excited till the book is in my hand) I'm even finally going to paint my sorcerer.

I'm going to make myself a demon engine army at 2k including
Helbrute
Decimator
Forgefiend
Defiler
Heldrake
Heldrake
3 Oblits for the sorc to lead.

And some oblits as a sorceror bodyguard.
Prescience will make a massive difference to my forgefiend.
Perfect timing makes my defiler lethal.
Scriers gaze will make heldrakes arrive on time

I can't remember if walkers get overwatch - if they do, forewarning could be useful.
A 4++ is always useful.

Misfortune will be good when things get into range.

The only thing that won't be fun in that army is is the sorceror gets buffs in cc.

It'll be a dumb army, but it'll look awesome on the table :)
 

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Rattlehead
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@Gret79 - just bear in mind that Perfect Timing and the Overwatch one only affect the Psyker and his unit, and precognition is only the Psyker. No Ignores Cover Battle Cannons or accurately Overwatching Forgefiends, I'm afraid.
 

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@Gret79 - just bear in mind that Perfect Timing and the Overwatch one only affect the Psyker and his unit, and precognition is only the Psyker. No Ignores Cover Battle Cannons or accurately Overwatching Forgefiends, I'm afraid.
Cheers - Perfect timing will work better on oblits then and forwarning goes to the 'swap for prescience' pile with precognition :)

Ethusiasm>reading skills/ :laugh:

EDIT:Enthusiasm>Writing skills today too...
 
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