Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm interested in exploring the idea of a Chaos Space Marine Deathstar. A number of other codex have viable Deathstar set ups and I think it'd be fun to do it with Chaos.

Lets start with units that could be part of it. Really, from what I can see, all we have are Termies (and Lords and Sorcerers of course) and Daemon Princes.

We could *theoretically* add some of the cult troops (Zerks/Plague Marines) as long as we didn't mind the 6" move and liked having to worry about multiple units. But for now, lets stick with the Termies.

My initial thought is a squad of Termies (6 maybe?) and two Termie Armored HQ.

THE SQUAD: These were my thoughts:
6x Termies (310): 6x Champs, IoS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Power Fist, 1x Heavy Flamer, 5x Combi-Plasma [These guys would be run with the intent of power weapon'ing through everything they hit on a fast initiative. 16 I5 PW attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at, not to mention 8 I1 PF attacks following it up. They'd probably be run with the two Lash Sorc. to max their strike range (6 + 4D6" is GOOD). Their downfall would be that both Sorc. would always have to target the same unit.]

Or

6x Termies (335): 6x Champs, IoN, 1x Chain Fist, 3x Power Fist, 1x Heavy Flamer, 5x Combi-Plasma[These guys I would consider running with a Lash Sorc and Typhus. They'd be tougher so I'd feel more comfortable putting another PF in the squad. Between Typhus' Warptimed Scythe, the Sorcerer's Force Weapon and the two Power Weapon wielding Termies there should be enough powered attacks at a decent I. Then, 4 power fists hitting at I1 should be enough to kill anything. The only thing I would be concerned with is the lower I of the group.]

As for the other Icons, Tzeentch will give me a better Invi, but will not help me kill more and Khorne just gives me another attack.

THE HQ:
Sorcerer #1 (145): Termie Armor, MoS, LoS, Combi-Melta
Sorcerer #2 (170): Termie Armor, MoT, Warptime, Combi-Melta
[The point of this would be to increase the deadliness of my Force Weapons. Honestly, this is one of my least favorite options, though it has potential against any squads with lots of Multi-wound models.]

Or

Sorcerer #1 (145): Termie Armor, MoS, LoS, Combi-Melta
Sorcerer #2 (145): Termie Armor, MoS, LoS, Combi-Melta
[I'm pretty sure this is a no-brainer. Excellent against high mobility armies (that aren't mech) and weak against vehicles. Plus, 6+4D6" seems like a great charge range. There is even the potential for a first turn charge with two 9+ rolls.]

Or

Sorcerer #1 (145): Termie Armor, MoS, LoS, Combi-Melta
Lord #1 (155): Termie Armor, MoS, Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta
[The Lord would be there to beat the SNOT out of anything the Sorcerer pulled in close.]

I know it seems like I'm obsessed with the Lash Sorcerer, but it is only because Lash is the only way I can think of to increase the mobility of an otherwise slow unit.

What do you guys think? Is it even worth doing? Is it going to be too expensive? Would you set it up differently? Should we be running a single Termie armored HQ and then run a DP behind the unit?

What are your thoughts? Once I've got a couple replies, I'd like to come up with a number of lists for different point values.

**edit**adjusted incorrect point costs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
361 Posts
The biggest problem I have is that you're putting a ton of points into a unit that has fantastically high odds of being out in the open on your opponent's next turn to be shot by AP2 or better weapons and assaulted by equal or higher initiative opponents, also with power weapons (Banshees, Incubi, Dante, Mephiston, just to name a few) plus virtually any Dreadnought will go before your dudes that can hurt it, and it should reliably kill 2 dudes if it charged. Maybe not worth the point exchange, but tactically it might be worth it, especially if there are multiple dreads for you to try to contend with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,275 Posts
space cowboy is right,but i like your idea of this.

the main issue i see, however, is that your Deathstar will be hoofing it, so it won't be as effective as it should. i'd recommend taking a LR so your squad won't die so easily as they foot slog it across the board.

good hunting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
@space cowboy: getting shot will be the bane of my existence. I'm hoping that the double Lash will let me assault something every turn but chances are I'll be rolling right on through during my turn and will be easy pickin's during my opponent's shooting phase. As for being assaulted by high I models...to my knowledge, there's nothing I can do about it. Plus, while they exist, models above I5 are fairly rare.

@Inquisitor Malaclypse: I'm really hoping that the dual Lash helps with the slowness of my unit. I can move 6" every turn, Lash up to 4D6 (average of 14") for a total of 20" of movement BEFORE my 6" assault. My concern with a Land Raider is that mine only hold 5 models which, frankly, isn't enough to get a good Deathstar going.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
361 Posts
Sure, models with I6 aren't terribly common, but the ones that are above I5 are usually going to mess you up, and then the ones that can get I5 on the charge (almost the entirety of a blood angels force, and that army is common) tend to be delivery systems for power weapons of some variety.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,277 Posts
Yah I got to say a far better death star unit is a simple 10 man IoK terminator squad with all PF. Or a dakka tzeentch terminator squad of 10 with mixed gear. Seriously it is hardly a death star unit if one half decent round of shooting cripples it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
I'm interested in exploring the idea of a Chaos Space Marine Deathstar. A number of other codex have viable Deathstar set ups and I think it'd be fun to do it with Chaos.
I know it seems like I'm obsessed with the Lash Sorcerer, but it is only because Lash is the only way I can think of to increase the mobility of an otherwise slow unit.
While I dont generally make advice on using bad units, I've always loved the idea of a deathstar unit like chosen of last edition, the problem is with the termies, they always go last charging into cover, they generally can't take a good hit, and the abundance of ap2 firepower in the game, seriously it's ridiculous. Also they suffer from the whole s4 t4 problem. And the lack of being fearless(REALLY BIG PROBLEM HERE)

So instead, why not build it off things that are often ignored, for one example, Possessed Chaos Space Marines.

They're four points cheaper then a termy, but can actually catch things in sweeping advances, have access to more varied rules(Power weapons makes the possessed....) Nevermind I just figured out why nobody uses these things. Hahah talked myself into a corner. We pay four points less for a unit that does nothing better, with a worse save. God damn stupid awful chaos marine codex.


Alright. So. Terminators.

Really I can only see two setups working since deathstars, by definition, need to make it across the table to be effective, and since our terminators blow ass they need either the Icon of Tzeentch(Making them ignore half of any saves needed) or they require the Icon of Nurgle(Makes them much less susceptible to bolter fire, las fire, and in general any weight of fire options, also makes them not give a damn about fighting marines in CC(wounding on fives, saving on twos? Whatever.)

I hinge toward the tzeentch as a 50% shot not to lose these overpriced devils seems much more useful, and they're GOING to be fighting in CC against things with power weapons. Plus this makes them better against vindicator shells and any s7 ap2 weapon in the game.

With that said let's plan on bringing the only viable hq options on foot to lead these guys:
Sorceror with lash(synergysynergysynergysynergy!)
Slaaneshi Chaos Lord with Blissgiver(ID against marines, AND strike first? Yes please.)

If we favor the sorceror(s), terminator armor might not be mandatory, with i6 force weapons we can ace tyranids before they swing, which is exceptional. Melta bombs might work just in case a dreadnought wants to chat. Plus if we have to charge through cover, we do NOT want to lose I6

Conversely we could put him in termi armor then take bolter wounds on him, he's got three, why not throw wounds on him?

The chaos lord, could go either way for both points, his ID every swing is amazing, and makes the deathstar work against nids and other non-daemon characters.

As for the squad, if they're being led by a sorceror, a lord, or two sorcerors, they're going to need weapons that strike at a strength higher then four to compensate for the brutally low strength of the greatest champion of chaos and the limp wristed cheese wizard.

Whether or not we put them in a land raider, the squad should be mixed weapons hinging toward more fists. They're only 10-15 pts each and totally worth it.

Now the land raider, if they're mounted inside they should have a heavy flamer, it's cheap as sin and worth it. otherwise a combi weapon on every fist, and claws in every non fist.

If they're walking, I think double reaper, and maximized combis is the best road. You have a walking problem for anyone that is sixteen wounds deep, and has a high threat range.


Unfortunately at the end of it all I just don't see it being competitive. Everytime I see massed chaos marines I just go in and mop up, if they're NOT icon of nurgle just bolter them to death, nurgle it's plasma fire. Our terminators lack any option of storm shields, which makes them bad, and they're not fearless, also bad. Plus we pay top dollar for threat range increase(Reaper) that sucks. As far as I know the only real way to run them is three deep with a fist and a heavy flamer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
@b.anthracis: That is a good point. I totally forgot about that. Do you think there would be any benefit to running one Sorc. and walking a DP behind the unit?

@LukeValantine: Think so? I wonder what the numbers would be if my squad hit yours...
This is what I got attacking. This is what the Khorne Termies hit back with. The next round of combat ends it with this.

But what about the Khorne Termies attacking? Since my squad has higher I, I still kill the same number of Termies in the opening round. This is the strike back, managing to kill one 4 guys (instead of 3). In the next round, there is a 3.8% chance one of the Termies of Khorne will survive to swing back.

So, while I agree that 10 Khornite Termies with PF would be scary, the squad I have now out preforms them. Even against a superior number of models with a 5+ Invi. The squad absolutely needs more survivability against shooting...any ideas besides upping the model count?

@LordWaffles: Excellent overview. I'm fairly confident that they'll almost never need to charge into terrain due to Lash, and I'm thinking that they have one of the best delivery systems in the game in Icons. I know its not really super reliable, but I can just picture squads of PM/Chosen sitting all over the board with Icons just waiting for their buddies to show up. DS in, and toss out 1xHF/Reaper, X TL bolters and up to 24 plasma shots (depending on how you kit the squad).
What about:
HQ:
Sorcerer #1 (145): Termie Armor, MoS, LoS, Combi-Melta
Lord #1 (155): Termie Armor, MoS, Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta
Troops:
10x Termies (555): 6x Champs, IoT, 2x Chain Fist, 4x Power Fist, 1x Heavy Flamer, 4x Combi-Plasma, 3x Combi melta

12 models of killy. Its becoming obvious that playing this at less then 2000 points would hurt something bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
So, while I agree that 10 Khornite Termies with PF would be scary, the squad I have now out preforms them. Even against a superior number of models with a 5+ Invi. The squad absolutely needs more survivability against shooting...any ideas besides upping the model count?

What about:
HQ:
Sorcerer #1 (145): Termie Armor, MoS, LoS, Combi-Melta
Lord #1 (155): Termie Armor, MoS, Daemon Weapon, Combi-Melta
Troops:
8x Termies (410): 6x Champs, IoS, 1x Chain Fist, 2x Power Fist, 1x Heavy Flamer, 4x Combi-Plasma, 3x Combi melta

10 models of killy.
Alright. This is why I don't like Slaneeshi troops.
You are a SINGLE VINDICATOR SHOT away from losing most of your squad. you already HAVE good attacks at I5 that are also ws 5/6, you do NOT need more. IoS is the worst icon for termies to take imho. It only works against marines, and even then, the sorc and lord will have already killed most of them.

If you need to take an icon that isn't defensive(Which is a REALLY bad idea. 700pts go poof to one half assed round of shooting) is khorne for more attacks.

Also remember that the terminators are not fearless and will run/get swept if they lose combat, and i5 wont help them in nearly as many combats as the other icons
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,277 Posts
I feel your new unit configuration is far improved, in that it should be able to statistically take 2 demolisher rounds before it becomes effective, hence giving it far more staying power and allowing it to function as the fire magnet terminators often become, however the 6 champs may be a little excessive for a ten man unit.

Still I can't help, but notice the defensive tune your reply took. I didn't mean any sort of personal attack I was merely offering the standardised meta game option for CSM terminators, that generates the highest tactical/cost return. Also your numbers seem to be off in that in any neutral unit evaluation neither gets the charge. Hence, in the opening round of combat you would kill 2 terminator before the IoK terminators hit then your remaining two terminators would kill 1.6 terminators netting a total of 3.6 kills, while assuming your unit did kill the two IoK terminators you would lose 6.6 terminators from the return attacks from the IoK terminators, now I don't know if your original calculations for the unit included the lord or brought the unit total up two 10, but it is damned obvious, both statistically, and to anyone with common sense that 6 IoS terminators will lose to 10 IoK terminators. Further more any true tactical anlysis shouldn't break down into X can beat Y unit, after all a unit of Plague marines can beat a unit of havocs in CC, but that has no true relavence, since havocs are designed for another tactical use then plague marines.

However I digress the whole point I suggest IoK berzerkers is that terminators fill a specific role in MeQ armies, and that is to fight the stuff your army regularly can't, hence terminators with PW are a oxymoron, unless your keep them as a cheap small anti MeQ force. Now these hard targets include av14 tanks (If you for some reason have a chortage of melta's) large units of nobs, MC's, and other targets that max out a typical CSM/SM's ability to cope. While your original unit selection can do moderately ok against these units they lack the ability to really shut them down before the unit gets crippled by returning/preliminary attacks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
My only comments on the deepstriking terminator team are thus:

Using an icon from a chosen squad makes you able to outflank in a rhino(so eighteen inch threat range from a board edge with the icon of no deep strike mishaps), which is good but also might dick you if the termies jump out first.

As for the issue on champs, I'd say one pair of lightning claws would work great, and one less champ. Every chainfist should be a champ and make the LClaws a champ, not only does this help clean up whatevers left from the shooting, but it also makes you able to play the musical wounds game to some extent(Which makes you take less casualties) My bad if my toned seemed off, I just kept seeing that MoS on the termie squad and that will do them no good at staying on the board(And for 700 pts it -really- needs to hang out and do its job)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,275 Posts
i'm liking where you're heading with this. i agree that IoT may be the most optional icon for your army, but (and this is where your local metagame comes in) over reliance on Lash could be bad for you, depending on how much anti-psyker gear your opponents field.

those Sorcs. could scorch themselves if facing Eldar, 'Nids, and =I= Psychic Hoods.

good hunting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Still I can't help, but notice the defensive tune your reply took. I didn't mean any sort of personal attack I was merely offering the standardised meta game option for CSM terminators, that generates the highest tactical/cost return. Also your numbers seem to be off in that in any neutral unit evaluation neither gets the charge. Hence, in the opening round of combat you would kill 2 terminator before the IoK terminators hit then your remaining two terminators would kill 1.6 terminators netting a total of 3.6 kills, while assuming your unit did kill the two IoK terminators you would lose 6.6 terminators from the return attacks from the IoK terminators, now I don't know if your original calculations for the unit included the lord or brought the unit total up two 10, but it is damned obvious, both statistically, and to anyone with common sense that 6 IoS terminators will lose to 10 IoK terminators. Further more any true tactical anlysis shouldn't break down into X can beat Y unit, after all a unit of Plague marines can beat a unit of havocs in CC, but that has no true relavence, since havocs are designed for another tactical use then plague marines.

However I digress the whole point I suggest IoK berzerkers is that terminators fill a specific role in MeQ armies, and that is to fight the stuff your army regularly can't, hence terminators with PW are a oxymoron, unless your keep them as a cheap small anti MeQ force. Now these hard targets include av14 tanks (If you for some reason have a chortage of melta's) large units of nobs, MC's, and other targets that max out a typical CSM/SM's ability to cope. While your original unit selection can do moderately ok against these units they lack the ability to really shut them down before the unit gets crippled by returning/preliminary attacks.
Reading back over what I wrote, I'm in complete agreement about my tone. Sorry about that, I didn't intend for it to come out that way. My battle calcs were calculated once if I got to charge and once if the Khorne Termies got to charge. I like your thoughts though, so I'll adjust the lists accordingly.


As for the issue on champs, I'd say one pair of lightning claws would work great, and one less champ. Every chainfist should be a champ and make the LClaws a champ, not only does this help clean up whatevers left from the shooting, but it also makes you able to play the musical wounds game to some extent(Which makes you take less casualties) My bad if my toned seemed off, I just kept seeing that MoS on the termie squad and that will do them no good at staying on the board(And for 700 pts it -really- needs to hang out and do its job)
I like these thoughts. I'll adjust the group.



i'm liking where you're heading with this. i agree that IoT may be the most optional icon for your army, but (and this is where your local metagame comes in) over reliance on Lash could be bad for you, depending on how much anti-psyker gear your opponents field.

those Sorcs. could scorch themselves if facing Eldar, 'Nids, and =I= Psychic Hoods.
This is another good point. My local meta doesn't have much anti-psyker so I'm generally comfortable with Lash.

Seems like we're headed in a good direction. I'll write up a couple lists and we'll see which people like most.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top