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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I've been playing mostly 800-1300pts games so far. I was thinking would I be able to increase the size of my army to 1850 that would make sense in any way out of the minis I have. This is what I came up with:

HQ
Chaos Lord: MoK, AoBF, Bike, Sigil
Be'lakor

TROOPS
10x - Chaos Space Marines: 2x Plasma gun
10x - Chaos Space Marines: MoS, VotLW, Champ: LC, IoE, 1x Meltagun, 1x Flamer, Boltguns -> CCWs, Chaos rhino
10x - Chaos Cultists
10x - Chaos Cultists

FAST ATTACK
6x - Chaos Bikers: MoK, 2x Meltagun, IoW
5x - Raptors: 2x Meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x - Obliterators: MoN


DAEMON ALLIES

HQ
Herald of Slaanesh: Exalted Locus of Beguilement, Exalted Reward (0: Grimoire)

TROOPS
20x - Daemonettes of Slaanesh

TOTAL: 1850

This list is using all the models I have except one Rhino, two Helbrutes, footslogging chaos lord/sorcerer and terminator chaos lord/sorcerer (last two are not ready yet). Haven't used Be'lakor yet because it costs so much. Gamers at my local gaming group play pretty casually so I don't know this might be able to do something. One option maybe would be to change Be'lakor to lead daemon detachment and use the points from herald to something else but the problem is I don't have much. And of course this is not optimal list even in my opinion but just wanted to get opinions if I'm yet able to enter the main game size of our gaming group. So... advice and suggestions are most welcome! :)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Running Be'Lakor as the Daemons HQ would at the very least let you take that other Rhino for your plasma CSM. I think it'd be best to try for 2 meltaguns in the squad instead of 1 melta 1 flamer, if you can find an extra meltagun to swap out. I'd also try to get dirge casters on the rhinos and perhaps a power weapon or lightning claw on the biker champ. Hmmm, your Lord could perhaps use meltabombs in case you run up against some tough walker, too.

I wasn't counting points there, but you may still have enough for an Alluress with a Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade), which would be lovely.

Of course, leaving things mostly as they stand is still a very valid choice. Pretty solid list. Personally I always prefer bikers to raptors due to the innumerable advantages they give for only 3 points per model more, but as you say, you are limited by your available models. Deep striking melta-raptors could always be a fun unit to nuke an enemy tank with, or something...
 
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Warsmith
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It looks a strong list!

I echo Mossy Toes, the first unit needs the Rhino, and the second melta on squad two.

My only advice is perhaps swap out the MON on the Oblits for MOT, with the use of the Grimoire you can get quite a scary unit!...
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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My only advice is perhaps swap out the MON on the Oblits for MOT, with the use of the Grimoire you can get quite a scary unit!...
Noooot quite as scary as you think, I think. Reread the MoT rule: it can only increase an invuln to 3+. So with MoN, you can still use Grimoire to the same benefit, while still being tougher.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Woah wasn't expecting that this was actually a solid list. Thanks to both of you for your feedback. I made another list based on your suggestions:

HQ

Chaos Lord: MoK, AoBF, Bike, Sigil, Melta bombs

TROOPS
10x - Chaos Space Marines: 2x Plasma gun, Chaos Rhino
10x - Chaos Space Marines: MoS, VotLW, Champ: LC, IoE, 2x Meltagun, Boltguns -> CCWs, Chaos rhino
10x - Chaos Cultists
10x - Chaos Cultists

FAST ATTACK
6x - Chaos Bikers: MoK, 2x Meltagun, IoW
5x - Raptors: 2x Meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x - Obliterators: MoN


DAEMON ALLIES

HQ
Be'lakor

TROOPS
20x - Daemonettes of Slaanesh: Alluress: Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade)

TOTAL: 1815

As it stands now theres 35 points left for use. Changes I made:

-Chaos lord got melta bombs
-Slaanesh csm got another meltagun
-Unmarked csm got rhino
-Be'lakor went to lead daemons and daemonettes got an alluress to lead them

About the Mark of Tzeentch on obliterators I had the same thought as MossyToes when I was reading your suggestion Uveron, but thanks still! And even though without grimoire Nurgle gives the very important +1T that makes them much more durable against instant death hits.

I still didn't add the dirge casters to rhinos because even though people everywhere are saying that they are a must, I can't see why. My rhinoes have tbh never got even near the 6" range that it would have mattered (might be my fault :grin:). And about the another meltagun, at first I only had 1 so I had to put the flamer on the other guy but I was damn lucky that last time when I was playing my opponent had 12 (yes you read right, 12) meltaguns to spare and he sold them all to me for a mere 2€. :grin: Lastly about the biker champion upgrade. I could get either LC or PF for him but I hate the points cost on those :cray:I suppose I still could put something on him.

I also want to say Mossy Toes that I have in fact read your tactica since I started playing with CSM (for few months) and my units are somewhat influenced by your advice. Your tactica's been most helpful and I thank you for that! Patiently waiting for more content :good:

And now for last we come to the problem that is my models. So what do you guys think that I should get next? At the moment I am thinking either heldrake, havocs or soul grinder. I think I also need to magnetize more of my models because I don't really know what I _really_ want from my army :grin: so I think it's best to make it as flexible as possible. Anyway at the moment my goal is to make quite agressive army with a little fire support.

Summary of questions:
-Comments about the new list?
-Tactics for daemonettes? Is it better to deepstrike or footslog in cover to get to assault range?
-What you think I should get next based on my goal (quite assault heavy army)?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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I still didn't add the dirge casters to rhinos because even though people everywhere are saying that they are a must, I can't see why. My rhinoes have tbh never got even near the 6" range that it would have mattered (might be my fault ).
Never fear, Rhinos are as tough as soggy cardboard, it's not your fault. With a very good player, sure, you can hug LOS blocking terrain or... something, but they still have a very short lifespan. If you have some other tanks or enoguh high-priority targets, though, they sometimes survive... so I find the high utiliy for cheap cost of dirge casters to be worth it most of the time. So if I have the 10 points to spare, sure, I'll throw them on. They're by o means essential, though.

Your tactica's been most helpful and I thank you for that! Patiently waiting for more content
Glad to have been of help!

...ahaha, yeah, more content... :blush:

At the moment I am thinking either heldrake, havocs or soul grinder.
All excellent choices.

...of course, none of them really in line with your "melee oriented" theme. Heldrakes are the most competitive unit in the 'dex, Havocs are relatively cheap and one of the best ways for CSM to get massed heavy weapons fire, and the Soul Grinder... is dead hard.

I might personally get some bikes to replace the Raptors, and perhaps about 15 Flesh Hounds for another "melee tarpit woundsoak" unit for the Daemons. Hmmm, without Grimoire, though, they're less durable by far...

Looking at your other models available--perhaps you should look into the Helbrute Formations and get a Helcult. 2 squads of Cultists plus a Helbrute; makes the Cultists fearless (until the 'Brute dies, then they get Zealot instead) and lets them dive in the way of shots coming at the 'Brute, while the 'Brute himself gets Rage... at the cost of squishing friendlies near him sometimes.

I see some utility here in the shape of 1 squad of 10 Cultists made Fearless hanging back on your objective, while a larger blob of about 30 Cultists (perhaps with flamers) wrap around a Helbrute and charge up the field. All you'd need here is about 20 more Cultists.

-Comments about the new list?
-Tactics for daemonettes? Is it better to deepstrike or footslog in cover to get to assault range?
-What you think I should get next based on my goal (quite assault heavy army)?
Hmmm, how to bring the 'Nettes in. If you still had a Herald of Slaanesh, I might well recommend you take a Steed on her and Outflank (w/ Acute Senses) the whole unit. Deep Striking can work pretty well, just be sure the enemy doesn't have, say, a Riptide with Interceptor. I still have nightmares from that high-strength pieplate landing on top of my tightly clustered Deep Striking 'Nettes before they could Run to spread out... *shudder*

Otherwise, they have value in threat saturation. If you keep them in reserve, the enemy are free to shoot at, say, you bikers for lack of a better target. On the other hand, if both your bikers, 2 squads of CSM, the 'nettes, and the Raptors are all plunging into their deployment zone... the more threats your opponent has to pick from, the more of them are going to survive to assault. Though yeah, the durability of the 'Nettes is pretty far down without Grimoire looking over their shoulder.

One minor thing about the list that stayed true over both iterations of the list is that I haven't found 2 cultist minimum-size units to be as useful as just one. In most missions, you're going to have an objective in cover your base area you can hide a squad on, but are unlikely to have two, meaning the other cultist unit has to brave the midfield and get splattered/run away as soon as anybody sneezes at them. To make matters worse, they're basically another free kill point if you roll that mission. I'd probably stick to one cultist squad (unless the other is large and bubble-wrapping a melee beatstick character, or is in a Helcult). That would free up more points, too, and 85 points--why, that's nearly enough to do something with. Hell, with those points (and the models you have) I'd be tempted to juggle Be'lakor back into the primary detachment and get the HoS again. No Locus, perhaps, but with a Lesser Reward and Grimoire, if my off-the-cuff recollection of points isn't wrong. And you might be able to juggle things around to get some sort of Locus back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
All excellent choices. ...of course, none of them really in line with your "melee oriented" theme. Heldrakes are the most competitive unit in the 'dex, Havocs are relatively cheap and one of the best ways for CSM to get massed heavy weapons fire, and the Soul Grinder... is dead hard.
My reason why I've been thinking these is that Heldrake just seems to be very good that at least I would like to test it myself, even though it doesn't fit into my goal. Havocs because I could easily just buy another CSM box and convert autocannon marines. And maybe it doesn't hurt to have something shooting in the background, especially against something like eldar (have lost twice to those...). I was thinking that Soul grinder could be used quite flexibly. Maybe with MoT, trying to close into enemy behind main advance while firing (harvester cannon also has skyfire so it would help dealing with flyers). I don't know how effective MoS soul grinder would be but at least it could close in quite quickly?

I might personally get some bikes to replace the Raptors, and perhaps about 15 Flesh Hounds for another "melee tarpit woundsoak" unit for the Daemons. Hmmm, without Grimoire, though, they're less durable by far...
I personally like more spawn/seeker/flesh hounds more than bikers and I know you're a huge biker fan :grin:. But you're right about replacing the raptors, out of 6-7 games I have used them they have destroyed only 1 vehicle... BUT on the first game I played, it was scouring and they granted me victory by capping the third objective (deepstrike straight into objective :good:). Still feels like they have quite awful success rate.

In fact I've been dying to buy these http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=260 as flesh hounds to my army. They are much cheaper than GW and look absolutely brilliant. I still haven't been able to make up my mind about do I get flesh hounds... or seekers. But now that I think about it flesh hounds only cost 60pts more if both units have 15 models without upgrades. Flesh hounds have double the wounds, are more durable overall and they are beasts. Seekers still hit harder but I guess it doesn't matter if you don't get to combat... Flesh hounds also have scout, so the enemy either makes sure they die or they get to combat.

Looking at your other models available--perhaps you should look into the Helbrute Formations and get a Helcult. 2 squads of Cultists plus a Helbrute; makes the Cultists fearless (until the 'Brute dies, then they get Zealot instead) and lets them dive in the way of shots coming at the 'Brute, while the 'Brute himself gets Rage... at the cost of squishing friendlies near him sometimes. I see some utility here in the shape of 1 squad of 10 Cultists made Fearless hanging back on your objective, while a larger blob of about 30 Cultists (perhaps with flamers) wrap around a Helbrute and charge up the field. All you'd need here is about 20 more Cultists.
I have heard about the new helcult rules but haven't been really into that. Doesn't sound so nice to me. My other helbrute is the one from dark vengeance and other is converted from a loyalist dreadnought that was lying around from my previous Grey knights army with ML and TL lascannon... So I really didn't have so much intention of getting those to my army :laugh: just been using them to up my points a little and get some firing support from the shooty brute. But thanks for the suggestion anyways.. I'll see if I get interested about it later.

Hmmm, how to bring the 'Nettes in. If you still had a Herald of Slaanesh, I might well recommend you take a Steed on her and Outflank (w/ Acute Senses) the whole unit. Deep Striking can work pretty well, just be sure the enemy doesn't have, say, a Riptide with Interceptor. I still have nightmares from that high-strength pieplate landing on top of my tightly clustered Deep Striking 'Nettes before they could Run to spread out... *shudder*
I still haven't faced riptide... I hope it doesn't hurt when it happens :grin:

Otherwise, they have value in threat saturation. If you keep them in reserve, the enemy are free to shoot at, say, you bikers for lack of a better target. On the other hand, if both your bikers, 2 squads of CSM, the 'nettes, and the Raptors are all plunging into their deployment zone... the more threats your opponent has to pick from, the more of them are going to survive to assault. Though yeah, the durability of the 'Nettes is pretty far down without Grimoire looking over their shoulder.
It's just as you said, it's important to stuff everything into opponents face at the same time so something might get into combat.

I have to still experiment with the cultists how to use them. I haven't played a single game at 1850 yet or used cultists much at all. I post more as I get new ideas and have tried something out :)

Thanks again for your comprehensive advice :good:Next game will be at tuesday, so maybe I get to test my 1850p list for the first time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Looking at your other models available--perhaps you should look into the Helbrute Formations and get a Helcult. 2 squads of Cultists plus a Helbrute; makes the Cultists fearless (until the 'Brute dies, then they get Zealot instead) and lets them dive in the way of shots coming at the 'Brute, while the 'Brute himself gets Rage... at the cost of squishing friendlies near him sometimes. I see some utility here in the shape of 1 squad of 10 Cultists made Fearless hanging back on your objective, while a larger blob of about 30 Cultists (perhaps with flamers) wrap around a Helbrute and charge up the field. All you'd need here is about 20 more Cultists.
Now in the morning I got time to delve deeper into the Helbrutes datasheet and read it by myself and thought more about this. This definitely sounds like a plan, but are the helbrute and cultists really gonna do something or is it just empty threat for the enemy? Helbrute still has only 2 base attacks and I don't know.. Maybe with thunderhammer, powerfist and 2 heavy flamers he would wreack havoc in close quarters :grin: (5 attacks on assault with 2 weapons and rage) I'm not really sure how the attacks are distributed with thunderhammer and powerfist... both are specialist weapons so brute would have 3 attacks then and the only difference between these two is that thunder hammer has concussive... If this is just unclear how to solve this then just pay the additional points for another hammer. Or what would you do?

It might also be a good idea to gear helbrute for shooting and leave him behind with cultists. Two squads of 10 with fearless camping the objective(s). Helbrute could get maybe plasma cannon and ML for reasonable amount of points. In this case the helbrute would give objective camping cultists another purpose as serving as meat shield. Plasma cannon would also give my army some very good anti-TEQ even though haven't seen a single terminator so far.

My helbrutes sadly don't fit in either of these setups, more converting needed or else I have to buy the new kit for this :grin:
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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In fact I've been dying to buy these http://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=260 as flesh hounds to my army. They are much cheaper than GW and look absolutely brilliant. I still haven't been able to make up my mind about do I get flesh hounds... or seekers. But now that I think about it flesh hounds only cost 60pts more if both units have 15 models without upgrades. Flesh hounds have double the wounds, are more durable overall and they are beasts. Seekers still hit harder but I guess it doesn't matter if you don't get to combat... Flesh hounds also have scout, so the enemy either makes sure they die or they get to combat.
More or less my thoughts. And damn, those models. If I didn't have 37-ish Flesh Hounds already (using Fenrisian Wolf models, mostly)...

I'm not really sure how the attacks are distributed with thunderhammer and powerfist...
In this case, you choose which of the weapons you want to use. So... probably the thunder hammer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Man those are AWESOME! If only I didn't already have like 20 fleshhounds
Yeah, they are really nice indeed. :good:I think I'm too much into alternative miniatures... I already have 2 units and 1 character from different manufacturer than GW and can just field 1850p army :grin: I also have many alternative models in store for the future when it is time to expand my army.

I don't know why, maybe it's that I try to compensate my painting skills with cooler models :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
HQ
Chaos Lord: MoK, AoBF, Bike, Sigil, Melta bombs

TROOPS
10x - Chaos Space Marines: 2x Plasma gun, Chaos Rhino
10x - Chaos Space Marines: MoS, VotLW, Champ: LC, IoE, 2x Meltagun, Boltguns -> CCWs, Chaos rhino
10x - Chaos Cultists
10x - Chaos Cultists

FAST ATTACK
6x - Chaos Bikers: MoK, 2x Meltagun, IoW, Champ: Power Fist
5x - Raptors: 2x Meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x - Obliterators: MoN, VotLW


DAEMON ALLIES

HQ
Be'lakor

TROOPS
20x - Daemonettes of Slaanesh: Alluress: Greater Reward (0: Greater Etherblade)

TOTAL: 1849

This is what the list looks like now. Just added PF to biker champ and VotLW to obliterators to make use up the spare points. Thought that I still keep the cultists separate because if you shoot the 20 man squad and kill just 5, they have to make that LD test. Also when they are in two squads they have to be shot at least two times, they can be at 2 places at the same time and they both make a smaller target. I hope I'll get to test this next tuesday and be able to give some opinions about it. Just got my Be'lakor standing, next phase is priming. He turned out preeetty good :good:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hi again everyone! It's been quite a while since last update.

I have now tried the list on the previous post once and some variations of it for few times. One variation I used last tuesday:

HQ
Chaos Lord: MoN, BBoS, Bike, Sigil, PF
Be'lakor

TROOPS
10x - Chaos Space Marines: 2x Plasma gun, Chaos Rhino with HL
10x - Chaos Space Marines: MoS, VotLW, Champ: LC, IoE, 2x Meltagun, Boltguns -> CCWs, Chaos rhino
10x - Chaos Cultists
10x - Chaos Cultists

FAST ATTACK
6x - Chaos Bikers: MoN, 2x Meltagun, Champ: Power Fist

HEAVY SUPPORT
3x - Obliterators: MoN, VotLW


DAEMON ALLIES

HQ
Herald of Slaanesh: Exalted Locus of Beguilement, Exalted Reward (0: Grimoire)

TROOPS
20x - Daemonettes

TOTAL: 1850

I also have lists for smaller games that more or less just have something missing from this list and some minor tweaks so they fit the smaller point limit.

These lists have worked quite well to be honest. Last game was the only one I lost (against orks by 1 victory point) and three before that I won (against necrons and 2 times against different space marines). I made some major mistakes against the orks and it was the first time I played against them so no wonder.

Be'lakor is quite hard to play with at least when it's my first time ever playing with a flying monstrous creature and at the same time trying to utilize its psyker abilities to full potential. I have also put my Be'lakor to some tough situations and pushing it's luck (just trying to test and really see how it fares in different situations, don't want to only trust on theory information on the datasleet). First game went quite well but on the second be'lakor charged ironclad dreadnought that had 2 heavy flamers and guess what, 4 overwatch hits and 4 failed invulnerable saves. :laugh:

But now back to the topic of expanding this army. So earlier I said I would be eager to get helldrake, havoks or soul grinder.. But I don't know. Many games have been (and will be) less than 1850, more like 1500, so I think I first try to make something out only from CSM. And as said previously I would like to have a more melee oriented army with little fire support. With that in mind I'm not so eager on getting a heldrake (because it arrives _maybe_ on turn 2... or later). Something I've had in mind would at least include:

10x - Chaos Cultists
10x - Chaos Cultists (possibly more cultists if need be)
6x - Chaos Bikers
2-3x - Obliterators
5x - Spawns
Crimson slaughter possessed/marines/terminators that would go in a land raider?

These will be about just over 700 points (without land raider and a unit inside). So if I would aim at 1500 points what would you add to the list and what do you think about the land raider set up? I think Be'lakor might be too much in 1500 points but maybe not (at least when there's 500p land raider unit included too). On the other hand Be'lakor could cast invisibility on the land raider and give it a good cover save and at the same time use puppet master to give firing support (I think last game I used my opponents looted wagons boomguns more than him :laugh:).

If someone is interested, these are the models I'm thinking of using as Spawn:



They are Syhar Sighthounds and would make perfect spawn models in my opinion. They are sold in packs of 3 for only 18$, so 6 would be 36$ (when 6 GW spawns are 124$...)

But yeah, what would you suggest to add to the "list" above? And wow, quite a wall of text I wrote :grin:
 
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