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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I got to thinking about it and honestly I'm not sure where we are supposed to put our mixed lists. My primary detachment is CSM's so I figured this was a safe bet. I've been messing around with different ideas for 7th edition and play testing how different characters do and such and I wanted to try out using our Daemon Battle Brothers to boost the ranks a bit. Let me know what yall think, comments and criticism welcomed.

HQ
Huron Blackheart

Herald of Tzeentch w/
ML 3 and an Exalted Reward (potentially the portal glyph for some harassment measures)

Troops
CSM x10 w/
CCW's, Meltagun x2, MoS, Icon of Excess, Power Weapon, Meltabombs

CSM x9 w/
CCW's, Meltagun, Mos, IoE, Power Weapon, Meltabombs

Pink Horrors x 10

Rhino x2

Fast Attack
Heldrake x2

Fortification
Aegis Defence Line w/
Comms Relay

Heavy
Soul Grinder w/
Daemon of Nurgle and Warpgaze

Total:1499

Infiltrate the 2 squads of CSM's with Huron, stick the Horrors and Herald behind the aegis next to the comms relay so they can benefit from a 2+ cover save when they go to ground while helping bring in my infiltrators and flyers and still be able to pull off some conjuring. I have 5 ML's in this list so I should have a reasonable amount of WC's to pull off even some higher level conjuring. Soul Grinder is my AA along with the Heldrakes plus that Warpgaze is a 24 inch S10 AP1 shot that can deal with vehicles that get too close.

Its really just an idea that i'm playing around with and it may not be enough for a 1500 match so let me know what yall think.
 

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I like the list. Nothing really wrong, just a note. If you outflank the marines you don't need the rhino. at least not both. since a unit is automatically infiltrated, you could remove one rhino, buy another boby and a 2nd meltagun to the smallest unit (and even a combimelta for the champ) and join them to huron. so, if you roll 1, you outflank them and deploy the other unit in the rhino, giving them some mobility. If you roll 2 you infiltrate both and lose nothing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i wanted to keep the rhinos bc off of the outflank you can move the rhino 6" off the board edge, disembark 6 inches from that rhino, and shoot all in the same turn. Basically its just for that extra 6 inches.
 

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i understand it. i've found that infiltrating them, however, can be more reliable and threatening. flank 1 and 1 infiltrate seemed logical to me, hence the infiltrators where removed of the rhino. however, not a true lacking of the list, just preferences.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
interesting point, i'd be afraid the infiltrators would get obliterated though? i guess it really depends on who's going first right?
 

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yes basically that, also, if you don't infiltrate in cover, it means that you are playing drunk :laugh:
jokes apart, 10 slaaneshi marines with meltaguns & icon popping midfield will force your opponent to diverge some turn 1 shooting from the soulgrinder to them. ideally they will have 10 bodies, T4 3+ armour, 4+ cover and 5+ FNP. Jeez, not so easy a nut to crack!
The point is to force tactical choices and to augment chance of bad targeting priority. Of course it also depends on the enemy list so beware of short range necron firepower or assaulty tyranids!
 

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your list blows. A few Barrage weps will wipe all your infantry. your rhinos are easy to glance to death and your soul grinder is the obvious target for all heavy weapons fire. helldrakes are no longer 360 degree firing arc and vector strike is a non issue for anything on the ground. Go back and try again.
 

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your list blows. A few Barrage weps will wipe all your infantry. your rhinos are easy to glance to death and your soul grinder is the obvious target for all heavy weapons fire. helldrakes are no longer 360 degree firing arc and vector strike is a non issue for anything on the ground. Go back and try again.
Or maybe since you have all the answers, you could give us some insight, from your majestic throne of contempt?
Also, with similar lists i've crushed many a fool who relied solely on lots of templates (ooh look, it scattered to no harm!) and to autocannon fire (well, you glaned it to death...but i already was midtable, now i shoot and charge you with my 20 marines...)

Such a generic input is hardly useful
 

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Criticizing a list isnt an attack on its author. But, just this once, the "majestic throne of contempt" as you so generously called me, will offer more insight.

Infiltrate sounds nice but your army isnt set up to really take advantage of it. your guys will have to get out of their vehicles turn 1 if they want to charge turn 2. This leaves them open to a round of shooting and because they are now so close to enemy lines, the inevitable counter charge by either a dedicated close combat unit or a tar pit. Either way there go your marines. If you keep them in the boxes till turn 2 you're hoping your opponent wont get 6 glances in two whole turns of shooting, the math does not favor you here since you have no meaningful way to start to whittle down your opponents shooting capacity until at least turn two when the heldrakes come in.

Your herald and troops will wilt when they are targeted by any shooting attack especially shots that ignore cover like thunderfire cannons etc etc. Your herald only has 2 t3 wounds and will Explode into tiny tiny bits if hit by any wep S6 or higher. Also Pink horrors can no longer reliably cast their awesome psy shooting attack. if you use two dice on the lvl 1 version you only have a 75% chance of a success to pass the test then there is deny the witch...

Heldrakes took a nefbat to the face and lost their 360 firing arc. Take one b/c the model is wicked awesome and does fill an important anti infantry role . Taking two doesnt offer you enough versatility for the cost.

Soulgrinders got even better in 7th b/c vehicles are harder to pop but warp gaze will always suck b/c SG's are bs3. So against a run of the mill AV 12 vehicle you have a 50% chance to hit, followed by a 66% chance to pen, followed by a 33% chance to explode, all of this before your opponent rolls a cover or inv save. Lets be generous and say they only have a 5+ sv so they have a 33% chance to ignore any pen you might have made. Just for some quick perspective if your game goes to turn 6 and your soulgrinder shoots ALL 6 TURNS (very unlikely) you will hit and average of 3 times, pen an average of twice, explode 0-1, with a 33% chance that your pens will be saved 0-1 saved on average. so your 175pts model will have done 2 HP worth of dmg or 1hp and 1 explodes result under optimal conditions, if your lucky. Your soulgrinder is also your only model that threatens your opponents vehicles at range which places it very high up on the target priority list for their heavy weapons. Thats a bad investment.

Here are some thoughts on how to improve your list

The two useful soul grinder upgrades are the torrent flamer and the large blast. The flamer is nice on a CC soulgrinder and the large blast is for the gunline. ALL the daemon options are fine but usually Shooty SG's get Nurgle for the shrouded special rule (stick them in a ruins for +2 save!) and CC SG's tend to use slaanesh for the fleet and +3inches to runs so they can get into combat by turn 2 or three. Don't forget that SG's dish out 5 str10 ap2 attacks on the charge so they wreck vehicles and ID multi-wound models very nicely and at av13 you need str 7 to glance in CC which negates all marines unless they have a powerfist/equivalent or melta bombs.

If you want to see Huron actually get into CC and do some dmg, a landraider is a must. It is the only reliable way to get any CSM unit into CC without losing half the squad.

A squad with the MOS and IoE is a great CC squad they usually hit first and the FnP makes them tough to kill, but they are expensive! Save it for the command squad. more bodies = more shots = more dead imperial scum

RHINOS ARE NOT GOOD AT GETTING UNITS TO CC. They make a decent fire support platform for a few special weapons to shoot from the fire points. I recommend plasma guns b/c 4 s7 ap2 shots add up quick, but melta can work fine too. Also if the Rhino dies every one gets out and the squad starts double taping vs having to wait a turn trying to survive before charging.

Also if your going to ally with Daemons you should take a fully kitted out Greater daemon or DP. DONT EVER FORGET TO TAKE 2x GREATER BLESSINGS. They are some of the most powerful, and i think coolest looking, single models in the game. Bloodthirsters are a NO DUH for CC oriented armies,but you can also take a flying DP of nurgle. Just swap out which ever Greater Reward isn't helpful for a balesword (Instant death wep at ap2) and roll all three psy powers on biomancy looking for endurance (4+ FnP) Iron arm (+3 t/s) life leech(way to recover wounds) and Warp Speed(+3 i/a). Dont Forget to JINK (which no longer requires the model to actually be swooping) b/c Jink + shrouded = 2+ cover SV!. shooting is a little harder. a KoS with the Slaanesh whip get 2d6 s6 shots at range 12 and as a lvl 1 psyker you can roll on telepathy hoping for Invis or shrouded and still get Psy shriek for free as a focused psyker. You could also trade in both of your greater gifts for 2 whips giving you 4d6 s6 shots + psy shriek. Loc's and GUO's both rely on psy powers to shoot, but if you like the model go for it.
 

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@DrStrangelove now thats a lovely and comprensible list critique. I answered harsh because you put out (at first) a very harsh and "offensive" post: not everyone here is a veteran. Some tolerance is needed ;) You can't imagine hom many times on the forum i've had to explain why not to mix plasmaguns with meltaguns! Still, imo, it has to be done. (and don't tell me you didn't liked the majestic throne of contempt thing! :laugh:)
BTW you have some good points.
I don't agree (mathemathically, i do) on your soul grinder analisisys since Kristopholes is trying to do a mixed bag army with marines in assault and daemons as small objective holders. The SG is, in my eyes, a backup unit, that will advance in cover, shooting, maybe with some reroll given by the herald. Then it will assault to support marines.
About infiltrating in rhinos you put up a very useful thing i forgot to add in my previous posts. That's another reason why i suggested him to remove the boxes at all. Agree totally.
On the drake i think you're too negative. Nerfbatted it has been ,true, but before, it was simply broken...however, i do agree that a nurgle DP with wings could be a pretty nice sobstitute to crush enemy tanks and give some serius cc support to huron and marines.
With this list i can see taking this very role, even a unit of 5 nurgle bikers with 2 meltaguns and combimelta. fast T6 with anti infantry (combibolters) and antitank, also a good cc support unit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
@DrStrangelove, despite your first comment, I appreciate your criticism and @neferhet I appreciate the defense of someone who didn't pick the game up again until recently and the additional comments. I'll just work my way down the line and issue a counter point and see if it has any merit.

I have not tried Infiltrating these units yet and when I made the list I was planning on outflanking them anyways. I realize that outflanking is somewhat unreliable as it requires you to roll for the table edge and you could end up on the opposite side, trudging your way to the enemy the whole time. This is Purpose 1 of the Rhinos, if I get screwed on the deployment in outflank, my guys aren't footslogging to get to battle.
Purpose 2 being that if I outflank into an army that has strong anti-infantry weapons in the back (not normal in my experience) I can stick in the rhino and shoot my meltas out the fire points without getting utterly destroyed. In the case that I face an army with a gunline, I can outflank, deploy the 6 inches and walk another 6 to close the distance on a gunline that may be using a corner method or even one that is set up slightly to the left or right of center.
The outflank also allows my units to come in at the same time as the heldrakes (hopefully, considering i took the comms relay its quite likely). Which brings me to the pink horrors and Herald.

I agree that the pink horrors are not very effective especially now that their witchfire power is harder to pull off but I'm not looking for the horrors to do any damage whatsoever in this list. The purpose of the horrors is to 1) act as meatshields for my herald, 2) man the comm relay so that my outflankers and fliers come in much more reliably and 3) for an extra WC on top of the other reasons. Sticking them behind the aegis gives them a 2+ cover save when they go to ground which, let's be honest, why wouldn't they? as far as i know, going to ground doesn't even affect the psychic phase for the Herald. In the case of a weapon that ignores cover like a barrage, I've had the same experience as neferet, they usually kill a few but are more likely to just scatter away... unless you face IG's mortar batteries that have that re-roll to hits and wounds but that's a singular case haha.

I planned on trying out the Malefic tree with the Herald and specifically a Herald bc 1) wanted to see how possible it was to conjure up some extra daemons in a small point match with 5+d6 WC's per turn. 2) small point value in a small point match, I feel like an effective DP or Greater Daemon would be good for higher points but waaaay too much to sink in to a unit at 1500. 3) Malefic's easier for Daemons whereas its unrealistic for others, besides the conjuring capabilities, i can be giving my daemons +1 to their invulns (including that wonderful Soul Grinder).

I completely disagree with the point that Heldrakes took a nerfbat to the face haha. I'd say you haven't fought someone who uses Heldrakes in 7th ed yet. The 360 degrees thing was broken anyways and in the fun of the game I never even used it (limited myself to 180 instead like a sponson mounted which most thought was reasonable bc the heldrake is an EFFING DRAGON). Now Heldrakes have been limited with 45 degrees which anyone who was anti-heldrake (everybody except chaos) rejoiced in but in reality it just doesn't let anyone complain about my flying AV12, str 6 AP 3 Torrented flamer with a 5+ invuln, a 4+ jink, four hull points, and It Will Not Die anymore. With effective flight plans that have even included going into hover a few times, the Heldrake is still an effective killing machine. Boo hoo my vector strike does nothing to land units any more but flyers beware bc now its D3 plasma hits in my movement phase. For 340 points I find my two helturkeys to be great damage dealers and fantastic intimidation factors. Add them with my outflankers and it turns into a game of threat saturation. I'm a firm believer that if you can scare your opponent the first two turns then your chances of victory skyrocket.

Now the Soulgrinder. I'll be honest, the Warpgaze was sort of a toss up for me anyways. I figured it was the same principal as the BS 3 tanks that IG has with the same weapons profile but on something that looks much scarier. I wouldn't want to take the ordnance though bc I want to be able to shoot that Heavy 3 Str 7 AP 4 (with or without skyfire!) Harvester Cannon. As you pointed out, the Nurgley Soulgrinder has shrouded so any cover I advance him through greatly increases survival rate on top of the 5+ (potentially 4+ from the Herald) invuln save. Add that to having 13 AV, 4 hull points, and all of those wonderful CC attacks you were talking about and I thought for 175 points I wasn't doing too bad. I'll definitely look into the torrent and DoS for a more CC focus.

Huron was chosen for his low point cost, his infiltrate, his fist/flamer combo and that's it. He can hit at the same time as my slanneshi marines which is faster than most which made him a viable add on. I have a Slanneshi lord in an alt. list that can do much of the same thing plus and minus a few things.

In the past several games with my slanneshi marines I've found that though they are expensive, they are less than Plague Marines with similar resilience and much more effective in CC with that plus one initiative. That +5 FnP may not look like much but if it saves two marines from their deaths then its already paid for itself (in my experience its saved much, much more). Coming in on a landraider does sound fantastic but I simply didn't want to dedicate that many points into something that would only get my guys (who I assure you can take a round of shooting with their +3 armor saves and +5 FnPs) into the mess of things and then essentially just kinda sit there. I have no Power of the Omnissiah and with this new vehicle dmg table its hard to explode a vehicle even with 2 twin linked las's. Surely a debatable point though.

I love the idea of that KoS with the whips and such but, as with the bikers, I don't have the models for it unfortunately.

I hope my points dont seem too hard-headed and that they actually have merit and dont think I took your criticism personally, this is an experimental list at the most that I'll get to try out tomorrow but wanted some input on it first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Fought a tau army yesterday with this list. Changed out the warp gaze for the flamer and I obliterated him. I know this was sort of based on luck but I brought in 2 three man squads of blood crushers via incursion and summoned 2 squads of ten blood letters. No perils the entire game. The heldrakes and soul grinder toasted his troops and my two squads came in on outflank on his gun line. He almost beat me in victory points bc of the tactical objectives but I got him in the end
 

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Great! I always love the smell of toastau in the morning!
GLORY TO CHAOS!!!
 
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