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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

Just thought I'd post up my experiences here of Crimson Slaughter Possessed with Invisibility. Now, I know a lot of people are complaining about Invisibility being broken but as I explained to my opponents, what would happen to 15 Possessed running across the board otherwise!? Exactly.

Anyway, I ran 15 of them with Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath & took a Sorcerer with ML+2, Daemonheart, Prophet of Voices & a Spell Familiar (taking all 3 rolls on Telepathy). My list also had Belakor for all the Telepathy options & I got Invisibility for my Sorcerer 2/3 games. Basically, I ensured that I got Invisibility on them every turn (one way of doing this is to use Psychic Shriek as it terrifies people, especially Marines), I think twice in the entire 3 games I failed to do this & I lost bodies, but with Invisibility on them, wow!

Got 3 games in, one against Ultramarines, one against Tyranids and one against Imperial Guard. I know this unit runs in at around 650 points but good god did it smash face. If you get Beasts off just once then you're easily looking at turn 3 assaults, which is what happened against Ultramarines, if they then get 3++/Rending then even TH/SS Terminators can't handle them, my Possessed went through 2 Tactical Squads and a Terminator Squad. A few times I got crap rolls like Shrouding whilst in melee but I had enough bodies to take it, even 8 of these guys on the charge do enough damage on most units.

The Astra Militarum player did eventually kill them all just through sheer weight of dice to throw at snap fire but not before they ploughed through his troops & command squads camped behind their Aegis.

Tyranids was tougher but they still ripped through Gaunts, Gargoyles and took down a Flyrant that was grounded. Weight of attacks at S6 are just nasty, Flyrants with TL-Devourers tend to murder MEQs but needing 6s to hit really helps take the heat off.

Oh, and I hardly noticed being I1 whilst charging into cover tbh.

Anyway, call it cheesy or whatever but I'm in love with this unit. I fully expect the SM player to ally in some Grey Knights though, his one ML2 Librarian couldn't compete in the Psychic Phase.

Dallas
 

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Thanks for sharing this. I was tempted to do the same thing but...650 pts is really steep a cost! How big is your normal list? 2000 pts?
 

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Not 650 points, no, 1000 points, because Drake is also taking Be'lakor as an Invisibility tax to ensure the getting of that power. Sure, Be'lakor has utility in addition to that, but... that is the main reason he gets taken. I'll be honest, too, I honestly prefer non-CS possessed--their rolls reliably buff their CC capability, rather than, say, giving themselves Shrouded or turning themselves into Beasts in CC 2/3 of the time. You can focus on making them tougher, and give them a delivery mechanism into combat somehow... and let them do their thing in close combat all the better. Not Troops, though, and expensive, so I'm probably going to look elsewhere.

And really, with how great Invisibility is these days, any deathstar can be stellar--and Chaos are the only ones who can guarantee that they'll get Invisibility (though it's a damn near thing for Tigurius, of course). What's to stop a unit of Terminators with MoT from being just as expensive and effective with Invisibility on them? They might not be able to roll Beast movement, but they can DS in for that same T3 charge. They're not super-scoring, but they can deal with T8 Wraithknights, enemy walkers, and 2+ armored enemies muuuuch easier than Possessed.

...Or a number of other units. A massive block of plague marines led by champ with power fist (possibly infiltrated forward by Huron, though you'll need a Nurgle-marked Lord in order to make them Troops--Typhus might well work!) will be more durable, put pain on high-toughness enemies easier with plague knives, have blight grenades to keep enemies from trying to drown you in weight of attacks on the charge to get some hits.

...Or blocks of Daemonettes (can take 40 in an allied detachment) led by 4 Heralds of Slaanesh (in an allied detachment--thank you FAQ!) that are all ML2, rolling on Telepathy for more Invisibilities than just Be'lakor, perhaps Outflanked if you give a Herald in each squad a Steed of Slaanesh. Also can throw on Grimoire to make one of those squads have a 3+ invuln every turn--and if you fail the Grimoire roll and get a 6+ invuln instead, hey, enemies are only hitting you on 6s anyways.

OR...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
2k neferhet.

No, the entire 16 man unit is 640. Be'Lakor is back up incase (50% chance) the Sorcerer doesn't get Invisability but I refuse to factor him into the cost of the unit; he is so much more than just Invisibility back up (which I could arguably do 'reasonably' for 110 points if necessary). It's hard to quantify quite what Be'Lakor brings for his high price tag but at 2k I find him great at supporting the whole army, just keep him out of melee until later in the game.

Sure 'any' Deathstar can be great with invisibility but Possessed who until recently sucked quite badly now (thanks to CS too) play pretty well with it. That might not mean much to some, but as a Word Bearers nut nothing makes me happier running a huge unit of Possessed up the board without wasting my time... And yeah, with S6 & the possibility of Rending on the charge & 4 attacks each Possessed do just fine against high toughness and 2+ saves, 1/3 chance of Beasts helps but Fleet is guaranteed & is damn nice for those crappy run/charge rolls.

Personally I hate how PMs look & I am not a fan of Nurgle one bit. But I agree they could be good too. Though I'd prefer to camp objectives & shoot with them.

Dallas
 

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And yeah, with S6 & the possibility of Rending on the charge & 4 attacks each Possessed do just fine against high toughness and 2+ saves
So... against a Wraithknight, assuming you get the charge against that Jump monstrous creature, and assuming you haven't taken any casualties (extremely generous assumptions, both), you're going to get 60 attacks, 30 hits, 5 wounds (before the enemy's 3+ armor), so about 2 unsaved wounds. A 1/3 chance at those being 5 rending wounds, admittedly, but of course, if you've rolled the Rending roll, you probably didn't get the Beast roll, so the enemy Wraithknight would have the movement advantage against you and would likely deny you your bonus attacks/Furious Charge.

Now, let's assume that you're charging a Riptide and haven't taken any casualties. 40 hits, 20 wounds (with a 1/3 chance at about 7 Rends, but also a 2/3 chance the enemy player has gone and given the Riptide a 3+ invuln, so let's ignore both of those to simplify the math. Plus the whole "mobility to even get in range" thing means that if Beasts, no Rending). That means about 3 wounds getting through the 2+ armor, there. (3 and 1/3, on average, to be precise).

Halve those numbers if you don't have the charge. Subtract any casualties (especially if you didn't get the first turn)... and Tau markerlights improving snap shots, or Eldar with Guide/Prescience/scatter lasers/twin-linked, in those examples, would be the best armies for dealing casualties to such a squad.

Sorry if I'm coming off depressively here--I've just fought altogether too much Tau and Eldar in the past half a year, and it's come to dominate how I build my poor melee lists against the two strongest shooty armies out there. I have to be able to deal with Riptides and Wraithknights in my lists, or I cannot win. :puke:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
So... against a Wraithknight, assuming you get the charge against that Jump monstrous creature, and assuming you haven't taken any casualties (extremely generous assumptions, both), you're going to get 60 attacks, 30 hits, 5 wounds (before the enemy's 3+ armor), so about 2 unsaved wounds. A 1/3 chance at those being 5 rending wounds, admittedly, but of course, if you've rolled the Rending roll, you probably didn't get the Beast roll, so the enemy Wraithknight would have the movement advantage against you and would likely deny you your bonus attacks/Furious Charge.

Now, let's assume that you're charging a Riptide and haven't taken any casualties. 40 hits, 20 wounds (with a 1/3 chance at about 7 Rends, but also a 2/3 chance the enemy player has gone and given the Riptide a 3+ invuln, so let's ignore both of those to simplify the math. Plus the whole "mobility to even get in range" thing means that if Beasts, no Rending). That means about 3 wounds getting through the 2+ armor, there. (3 and 1/3, on average, to be precise).

Halve those numbers if you don't have the charge. Subtract any casualties (especially if you didn't get the first turn)... and Tau markerlights improving snap shots, or Eldar with Guide/Prescience/scatter lasers/twin-linked, in those examples, would be the best armies for dealing casualties to such a squad.

Sorry if I'm coming off depressively here--I've just fought altogether too much Tau and Eldar in the past half a year, and it's come to dominate how I build my poor melee lists against the two strongest shooty armies out there. I have to be able to deal with Riptides and Wraithknights in my lists, or I cannot win. :puke:
Well, I see where you're coming from now. Wraithknights & Riptides are by no means an ideal situation but say we're lucky and we we get the charge & get 15 Possessed with Furious Charge into combat. A Wraithknight has 6 wounds & a 3+, so lets say he takes (60/6*3=30/6*2=10 wounds every combat phase, he'll save 7 with a 3+. So, he takes 3 wounds. We're Invisible so his 4 attacks hit on a 5+ & if he hits he probably kills us, unless we have our 3++ or get lucky with our 5++. Either way, he's going to lose in a war of attrition. Not brilliant but what better can we hope for? You've got a change of killing the enemy in his combat phase, also 250 odd points of shooty wraithcannons/starcannons locked in a combat of attrition it won't win? Sure. Is it the best use of our expensive unit? No, but then neither is ripping Guardsmen limb from limb. Plus, if the Sorcerer has had his weetabix he can try to get Force off on his force axe, that shouldn't be ignored.

I don't play Tau but if I remember correctly that guy is T6 W5? 2+ 5++ unless it gets Nova for the 3++?
Well, I think the hardest thing is going to be getting into combat with this guy, if you do & you get the charge my maths has him taking 20 saves. 60/6*4=40/6*3=20. Invulnerable or not that's 3-6+ wounds.

Now, I know that we're assuming a) The Possessed get the charge b) The Possessed get there intact with Invisibility (which they probably won't but Invisibility will take loads off the rest of the army & I had them reach an IG gunline without taking a single wound on Saturday). I'm not saying Possessed are the new black, use Terminators or Plague Marines, or whatever. I'm just saying that they can be nasty and are no longer a derp choice for those of us who desperately love the fluff/models and want to field them without tying one hand behind our backs.

Dallas
 

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T6 W5? 2+ 5++ unless it gets Nova for the 3++?
Yeah, except I think only WS2. It's the Grey Knights Dreadknight that's going to have a higher WS but a lower best-possible Invuln (though Sanctuary would boost that, to say nothing of make your Possessed count as being in dangerous terrain).

In your Wraithknight combat simulation, do bear in mind that after the first round of combat you're down to 30 attacks per phase, not 60, minus however many he's killed at I5 in those two phases with 4 attacks (master-crafted if he has a sword). But yeah, I do agree that his 280 point MC would probably be killed by your 650 point deathstar, especially if your Sorc gets a force axe wound on him to ID him (though the sorc can't really wound him, otherwise).

I'm just saying that they can be nasty and are no longer a derp choice for those of us who desperately love the fluff/models and want to field them without tying one hand behind our backs.
And I congratulate you for it. Good for you, for playing a spare-time-for-fun hobby as if you *gasp* want to have fun and take pride in your army.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
And I congratulate you for it. Good for you, for playing a spare-time-for-fun hobby as if you *gasp* want to have fun and take pride in your army.
Well, I'll just end this conversation right here. Nobody plays to lose so having a half decent chance of winning with the units/models you like is pretty important. You're obviously the one who isn't enjoying their games anymore (see Tau/Eldar comments), & your passive aggressiveness is kinda strange.

Dallas
 

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Well, I'll just end this conversation right here. Nobody plays to lose so having a half decent chance of winning with the units/models you like is pretty important. You're obviously the one who isn't enjoying their games anymore (see Tau/Eldar comments), & your passive aggressiveness is kinda strange.

Dallas
Lol, @Dallas_Drake , Mossy was jocking and agreeing with you :)
Being pitted frequently with dickish tau/eldar opponents will scar you inside...like being gang-raped by a yakuza fire team in a dark alley of tokio downtown. You'll become harder and more grimdark than before! :laugh:
For a more "affordable" loadout, since i mostly play at 1500:
How would you see a mob of 35 cultist, MoK joined by a ML 3 Psyker with Prophet of the voices
and another ML 2 Psyker on bike, with 5 bikers (as an escort), all with telepathy, the latter unit to be used as a fast aggression uint to be followed by the cultist swarm?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Lol, @Dallas_Drake , Mossy was jocking and agreeing with you :)
Being pitted frequently with dickish tau/eldar opponents will scar you inside...like being gang-raped by a yakuza fire team in a dark alley of tokio downtown. You'll become harder and more grimdark than before! :laugh:
For a more "affordable" loadout, since i mostly play at 1500:
How would you see a mob of 35 cultist, MoK joined by a ML 3 Psyker with Prophet of the voices
and another ML 2 Psyker on bike, with 5 bikers (as an escort), all with telepathy, the latter unit to be used as a fast aggression uint to be followed by the cultist swarm?
Oh right!? Sorry then. That's totally not how I interpreted it but I guess that's the internet.

One of the best things about Invisibility is immunity to blast weapons, I play against Manticores quite a lot & my regular SM opponent loves his Thunderfires, so from that point of view it's great on Cultists escorting Lords. Though, I think for speed & toughness you're going to get loads more from just running a tooled up Lord on a bike with 4-5 bikers & a Sorcerer on a bike. Cultists are slow & I prefer to use them in a Helcult tbh.

At 1500 or lower I'm tempted to run one Sorcerer with Telepathy (cheap as can be effective so around 125 points) and one with Malefic & prophet of voices+familiar. That way, I've got 50% chance of Invisability but I can still pull off tricks with Malefic. It'll mean running 9-12 Possessed too, which might be less of a point sink. I'm still not buying Possessed in a transport though, the Sorcerer can't cast much from in there & as Rhinos are now out of the question for transporting assaulters it's really down to buying a Land Raider, which while tougher is points I'd rather spend on Oblits or even a Fire Raptor.

Dallas
 

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I'm still not buying Possessed in a transport though, the Sorcerer can't cast much from in there & as Rhinos are now out of the question for transporting assaulters it's really down to buying a Land Raider, which while tougher is points I'd rather spend on Oblits or even a Fire Raptor.
There's also the issue of Possessed turning into Beasts while in their Transport, at which point they presumably disembark immediately since Beasts can't go in Transports (unless there's an FAQ to the contrary).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
There's also the issue of Possessed turning into Beasts while in their Transport, at which point they presumably disembark immediately since Beasts can't go in Transports (unless there's an FAQ to the contrary).
Yeah, I don't know quite what GW want/expect there. I assume you'd have to make an emergency disembarkation... which would be insanely annoying.
 

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Well, I'll just end this conversation right here. Nobody plays to lose so having a half decent chance of winning with the units/models you like is pretty important. You're obviously the one who isn't enjoying their games anymore (see Tau/Eldar comments), & your passive aggressiveness is kinda strange.

Dallas
Yeah, sorry if I came off passive-aggressive there--that was really meant more to be poking fun at people who insist that one should always take the "most competitive" possible choice. Now, I realize there may be some cognitive dissonance there with the advice I've been giving, since my posting style is generally to look for how to make a list more competitive... but I don't see "how can this list be improved" as a mandate to "make it the most competitive possible." Before the Heldrake nerf came out, for instance, the most "competitive" Chaos list would be Triple Dragon, but... nah, I'm not going to advocate for that.

I very much did mean that as praise of your stance, that you're going to use the models you love to enjoy the hobby as best you can. Ultimately, the hobby is about having fun, and if part of my fun comes from balancing models and points and rulesets to fight an uphill battle as well as I can... sorry if I step on your toes while doing that.

So basically: seriously, more power to you for rocking Possessed, a unit you enjoy, in a way that you can make work for yourself in your games. I'm not going to throw a hissy fit because I can't win you over with supposedly "superior" alternatives.

@neferhet why'd you have to dig up those memories. *shudders* the yakuza... I still can't help but flinch when I hear the word "Toyko".
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
No worries Mossy. Your points were all totally valid & quite honestly very good points. Lack of powerfists etc hurts Possessed. Ah well... I'm actually having to drop Belakor as my group are dropping to 1500 points (2k games take too long apparently). So, I'm looking at shaving the Possessed down to 10-12 or so & giving the 'Possessed' Sorcerer with them level 1 Malefic so I can conjure daemons up the board to support the assault. I'll support them with a level 3 Sorcerer with Telepathy running with 2 Obliterators.
@Dave T Hobbit - does that mean Possessed as Beasts can't disembark? Or do you just essentially ignore the Beasts roll?

Dallas
 

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does that mean Possessed as Beasts can't disembark? Or do you just essentially ignore the Beasts roll?
Embarking and disembarking are different movement actions, so I don't see any reason why Beasts cannot disembark normally.

It is probably a bit of a waste anyway, but not having to emergency disembark is slightly better.
 
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