[NathanJD]

I have a dilemma.

The Crimson Slaughter supplement states that all units in a crimson slaughter detachment have fear. Well, in 7th edition, there is no longer an entity named "Crimson Slaughter Detachment". There are only combined arms detachments, allied, etc.

Basically the way battle-forged army selection works now is you select a detachment. Then fill the detachment with any units from all of 40k via their dataslate. Then repeat for as many detachments as you like.

However, if any combined arms detachments contain units that are not the same faction, you run afoul of the one faction limit set by that detachment. This however does not prevent you from taking khorne daemonkin entries alongside of vanilla CSM entries in the same detachment as they are both the same faction. Or even, Renegades and vanilla CSM in the same purge detachment (since this detachment allows both factions).

This stems from the fact the codexes mean nothing now. They are simply a loose grouping of dataslates that happen to belong to the same faction. Another way to state this is that the "pick a codex" step from army creation is gone in 7th ed.

Now, here is my dilemma. It seems illegal to take relics from the crimson slaughter supplement. Why? It's because the wording is such that only characters from a "Crimson Slaughter Detachment" (which doesn't exist anymore) may take crimson slaughter relics. This also means that no unit gets fear. No special posessed. And no option for drazicht's ravagers. Similarly for black legion this means no relics or chosen as troops.

Is it even possible to take crimson slaughter models as, unlike khorne daemonkin, the supplement doesn't contain any of its own dataslates?

What am I missing? Or is GW just really this bad at rules?

 

[Uveron]

Any detachment taken with the Crimson Slaughter codex becomes a Crimson Slaughter Detachment.

IE, A Crimson Slaughter combined arms detachments.. is a Crimson Slaughter Detachment.

Does that make sense?

 

[mayegelt]

Basically this convo has appeared before but for a different purpose...
The word Faction included in the CAD and AD is "Crimson Slaughter" in this case. This means if you take Crimson Slaughter for your leader in a CAD you could not then have the other HQ from that army being a Chaos Lord with Axe of Blind Fury (Faction CSM). To be able to take that you would need an additional CAD or AD to have them, and everything with him on that CAD/AD would be Faction CSM (so no fear for them).

As for Dataslates it kinda depends on what they are. If you went for a Helcult, Mayhem Pack or Murder Pack (the 3 Helbrute formations) they can be Crimson Slaughter (even if the rest of the army isn't), However they could not be Daemonkin, as Daemonkin are an entirely new entity on the allies table. Rather than CSM / CS / BL that all count as CSM.

 

[Vaz]

This has come from the transition from 6th to 7th edition. From what I remember, what Mayegelt says is true, although I have no book to check.

 

[MidnightSun]

And remember that since it doesn't specify models with the Crimson Slaughter faction, your Fortifications and Lords of War get free Fear as well!

I mean, sure, it's no Iron Hands IWND Baneblade but hey, it's free!

 

[NathanJD]

The word Faction included in the CAD and AD is "Crimson Slaughter" in this case.

At first this appears to be true. From the BRB under "Choosing Your Army > Army List Entries":

“When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title.”

This is however overridden by the following excerpt from "Choosing Your Army > Factions":

“In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.”

This means that there is no faction called Crimson Slaughter! If, for some reason, you could take Crimson Slaughter models in an army, their faction would simply be: "Chaos Space Marines".

This means if you take Crimson Slaughter for your leader in a CAD you could not then have the other HQ from that army being a Chaos Lord with Axe of Blind Fury (Faction CSM). To be able to take that you would need an additional CAD or AD to have them, and everything with him on that CAD/AD would be Faction CSM (so no fear for them).

If, we assume it is possible to take models with access to Crimson Slaughter relics, then it would indeed be legal to have one HQ with the burning brand and one HQ with the daemonheart in the same combined arms detachment since they are both of the same faction "Chaos Space Marines". You could not however, mix the burning brand HQ with a Khorne Daemonkin HQ. This is because daemonkin are a separate codex rather than a supplement so get their own faction of "Khorne Daemonkin".

Any detachment taken with the Crimson Slaughter codex becomes a Crimson Slaughter Detachment.

Please point me to where in the rulebook it states that a codex must be chosen for army selection. As I currently understand it, vanilla, crimson slaughter and black legion models can all live happily together in the same combined arms detachment. What would you call such a detachment?

IE, A Crimson Slaughter combined arms detachments.. is a Crimson Slaughter Detachment.

This setup would be a "Combined Arms Detachment" which contains only one faction, "Chaos Space Marines" (this is only to satisfy the one faction restriction on the detachment). Unlike the detachments in the khorne daemonkin book, a "Combined Arms Detachment" is not tied to any specific faction.

And remember that since it doesn't specify models with the Crimson Slaughter faction, your Fortifications and Lords of War get free Fear as well!

I mean, sure, it's no Iron Hands IWND Baneblade but hey, it's free!

Nice one. That hadn't occurred to me.

Were this to be as @Uveron explained, GW would need to rewrite it as a codex rather than a supplement or create a new detachment:

Crimson Slaughter Detachment
FOC: Same as combined arms.
Restrictions: Every model must have the Chaos Space Marine faction or no faction. No VotlW on most units, only crimson slaughter relics, etc.
Command Benefits: All models get fear. Possessed as troops, access to Crimson Slaughter, chosen can be upgraded to ravagers, etc.

So... I'm still left with the original question. Given I can mix crimson slaughter, black legion and vanilla models in the same detachment, how can I legally take a "Crimson Slaughter Detachment" and therefore gain access to the supplement's rules and relics?

 

[Kreuger]

From my past readings, I would contend @Uveron has the right of it. My understanding (and I'll need to corroborate this with the rule book) is that a given detachment must come froma single source, be it a dataslate, codex, or codex supplement.

Logically speaking, the reason why supplements can draw on units from the host codex is to avoid reprinting rules. The supplement only details the ways the crimson slaughter are different from basic chaos marines, not the same.

Yeah I just checked the rules, a crimson slaughter detachment is chosen from codex CSM and codex crimson slaughter. The faction is the general "side" an army fights for. Take a look under battle-forged armies on p.117, a detachment confirms to rules for a benefit. The "benefit" of adhering to a crimson slaughter detachment is the ability to bring their units and artefacts.
It's also important to note that a formation does not equal a combined arms detachment. A formation is a type of detachment with it's own restrictions. So in the Khorne daemonkin list, I can bring way more assault troops which are all faction Khorne daemonkin, who are name brother allies with daemons and csm, but whose troops I can't substitute in my formations.

Does that help clarify the Crimson Slaughter quandary?

P.S. - The "JD" in your username doesn't perhaps denote "Juris Doctor" does it? Because this is starting to sound like rules lawyering. Except, I'm not quite sure what side you are trying to argue.

 

[mayegelt]

RELICS OF THE CRIMSON SLAUGHTER

Any character in your Crimson Slaughter detachment that can select Chaos Artefacts cannot select from those listed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, but can instead select from the Relics of the Crimson Slaughter, presented opposite, at the points cost shown.​

ALLIES
A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa).

RESTRICTIONS
This Detachment cannot be your Primary Detachment.
Your Warlord can never be chosen from this Detachment.
All units chosen must have the same Faction (or no Faction).
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)

As said you are a Crimson Slaughter Detachment. ALSO as you can not have an Allied Detachment of the same faction as your own and it says clearly here and in Black Legion that you can ally with CSM.

The only supplement that didn't allow you to ally with the main codex was Iyanden.​

 

[Vaz]

At first this appears to be true. From the BRB under "Choosing Your Army > Army List Entries":

“When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title.”

This is however overridden by the following excerpt from "Choosing Your Army > Factions":

“In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.”

All of which are overruled by the rule at the start of the rules section;

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Basic versus Advanced Box Out, General Principles, The Rules, 7th Edition Rulebook

And as said before; this is a 6th to 7th edition issue, grand fathered in and hence comes with slightly broken rules (was it the infamous Tau Multitracker or whatever it was from the 4th edition dex brought into 5th?). Either don't be a dick, and play it how it is, or explain how exactly you're trying to abuse this?

 

[NathanJD]

From my past readings, I would contend @Uveron has the right of it. My understanding (and I'll need to corroborate this with the rule book) is that a given detachment must come from a single source, be it a dataslate, codex, or codex supplement.

I can't find this "single source" limitation anywhere. It feels like a relic that people are remembering from previous editions. If you're referring the the first line of "Warbands of the Crimson Slaughter", my response is just below:

Yeah I just checked the rules, a crimson slaughter detachment is chosen from codex CSM and codex crimson slaughter.

The wording is actually, "A Crimson Slaughter Army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines." It does not restrict on a detachment level. However this is not much use to either case because it present few options:

- If "army" is defined as your entire force as it is in the BRB and in the relics section, then every single unit in your army must be chosen this way. This contradicts the allies section which allows for vanilla allies within the same army.

- If "army" is defined otherwise, it really imposes no detachment level restrictions. We cannot take the word "army" to instead mean "detachment", as we would also have to swap out "army" for "detachment" in the relics section. This would then allow for taking multiples of the same relic since uniqueness would only then be enforced per detachment.

- No strict definition, just a squishy word for all units you took that are using these rules. Probably the most RAI interpretation and the one I have been playing my games under.

So again... we're in a RAW black hole.

The faction is the general "side" an army fights for. Take a look under battle-forged armies on p.117, a detachment confirms to rules for a benefit. The "benefit" of adhering to a crimson slaughter detachment is the ability to bring their units and artefacts.

Yes, but in 7th there is no "Crimson Slaughter detachment." Nor are there any detachments that belong the the Crimson Slaughter faction as is the case with Khorne Daemonkin. Nor is there any defined capability for a particular codex/faction/supplement to take ownership of a faction-less detachment.

To be a detachment, some questions need to be answered plainly. What specifically are the command benefits, which are the restrictions, what is the foc for this imaginary detachment, does it belong to a faction(s) and if so, which one(s)?

It seems you're making the argument for a house ruled detachment based on your interpretation of RAI. I assume it is similar to what I posted above?

Crimson Slaughter Detachment
FOC: Same as combined arms.
Restrictions: Every model must have the Chaos Space Marine faction or no faction. No VotlW on most units, only crimson slaughter relics, etc.
Command Benefits: All models get fear. Possessed as troops, access to Crimson Slaughter, chosen can be upgraded to ravagers, etc.

It's also important to note that a formation does not equal a combined arms detachment. A formation is a type of detachment with it's own restrictions.

I was attempting to use combined arms detachments as an example because they are most like the rules in 6th ed. Same FOC and has a one faction restriction unlike some other detachments (namely the Purge detachment from IA13). I'll try to be more clear in the future.

P.S. - The "JD" in your username doesn't perhaps denote "Juris Doctor" does it? Because this is starting to sound like rules lawyering. Except, I'm not quite sure what side you are trying to argue.

Just my initials. No fancy law degree here.

I'm not trying to argue anything. I just encountered this "rules black hole" recently and have been unable to resolve it for myself. I want to be able to write my army lists correctly but cannot find out how to do so.

As said you are a Crimson Slaughter Detachment.​

I still cannot see the existence of said "Crimson Slaughter detachment" or the ability for crimson slaughter to own a detachment. Without a single source limitation to detachments, it is impossible to definitively say one detachment is Crimson Slaughter vs Black Legion because both can reside in the same detachment. This issue is shown more clearly in the Purge detachment. Please help.

ALSO as you can not have an Allied Detachment of the same faction as your own and it says clearly here and in Black Legion that you can ally with CSM.​

This would be a case of the supplement overriding the rulebook but not in how you've presented it. The BRB states that vanilla, crimson slaughter and black legion all have the same faction of "Chaos Space Marines". It also states that an allied detachment cannot be of the same faction. The supplement specifically overrides this limitation, allowing for these same faction allies. However, it does not change their faction. Both parties still have the "Chaos Space Marine" faction.

Additionally, the wording is such that an allied detachment may have none of the factions (plural!) present in your primary detachment. This alludes to and covers the possibility of multiple factions in one primary detachment.

All of which are overruled by the rule at the start of the rules section;

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Basic versus Advanced Box Out, General Principles, The Rules, 7th Edition Rulebook

And as said before; this is a 6th to 7th edition issue, grand fathered in and hence comes with slightly broken rules (was it the infamous Tau Multitracker or whatever it was from the 4th edition dex brought into 5th?). Either don't be a dick, and play it how it is, or explain how exactly you're trying to abuse this?

Both quotes I posted were from the BRB. Where is the conflict? The supplement says it uses the army list from the vanilla CSM book. Under "Using the Army List" in the CSM book, it says to use the BRB rules.

"Before you choose an army, you will need to agree with your opponent upon the type of game you are going to play and the maximum total number of points each of you will spend. Then you can proceed to pick your army following the guidelines given in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

What am I trying to accomplish?

- Discover how to actually take Crimson Slaughter rules through RAW. I like the supplement and would like to continue using it without house rules.

To discover that I'm searching for some information:

- Discover if there is a single source limitation for detachments in 7th ed. Current answer is no limit.
- If no single source limit, discover how an army list takes "possession" of a detachment. How is it determined that a detachment is a "Crimson Slaughter detachment" vs a "Vanilla CSM detachment" when it can contain units from both lists?

This is hard because of the way the BRB currently reads on army selection:

Step 1. Add Units
Add units to your army. There are no restrictions on where these units come from.

Step 2. Group Units into detachments (optional)
For a unit to receive its detachment's command benefits, the entire army must be battle-forged. To be battle-forged is to ensure all units reside inside detachment(s).

A formation is a detachment with one small change: formation benefits apply even in an unbound army.

An example:

Step 1. Add Units
Sorcerer (vanilla)
Sorcerer (crimson slaughter)
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

Step 2. Group Units into detachments (optional)
# Primary Combined Arms
## HQ
Sorcerer (vanilla)
Sorcerer (crimson slaughter)

## Troop
10 Cultists
10 Cultists

This seems the prescribed method of army selection and is 100% battle-forged.

Another example, one with two factions in a detachment:

Step 1. Add Units
Sorcerer (vanilla)
Command Squad(renegades of vraks)
5 Disciples(renegades of vraks)
5 Disciples(renegades of vraks)

Step 2. Group Units into detachments (optional)
# Primary Purge
## HQ
Sorcerer (vanilla)
Command Squad(renegades of vraks)

## Elite
5 Disciples(renegades of vraks)
5 Disciples(renegades of vraks)

This too seems correct and is even supported by the allied detachment wording of:

“All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).”

This would mean that an allied detachment to the above primary could contain neither units from the "Chaos Space Marines" faction nor the "Renegades of Vraks" faction. Clean and easy.

So to wrap up, I have yet to see evidence requiring a single source per detachment. Because of this, I can not figure out how to create a "Crimson Slaughter detachment". Without said detachment, I can't figure out how to use any of the rules or relics RAW in the supplement.

I have been working on a parser for my 40k lists and want to get the logic right.

Thank you all for you time.

 

[mayegelt]

OK lets take a magical trip to the Space Marine Codex...

When choosing a Space Marines detachement, whether primary or allied, choose one of the Chapters listed in this section. Mark the Chapter you choose for each detachment on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate Chapter Tactics for their detachment's Chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rules. Certain units and special characters have a specific Chapter Tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified Chapter.
You must let your opponent know what Chapter each detachment is from, and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases this will be obvious from the colour scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand Chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful.

A Space Marine detachemetn chosen from this codex that has one set of Chapter Tactics may ally with the another Space Marine detachement chosen from the codex that has a different set of Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines and Raven Guard, for example). For the purposes of the Allies rules, these detachements are treated as if they were chosen from two different codexes and are treated as Battle Brothers.

Ok... So those are 2 long arse quotes from the Space Marine codex. In each case it is saying that if you choose 1 type of detachment you cant go picking stuff from anywhere else. Equally again as allies they can take each other as they are basically saying they are a different faction from each other.

The way you are proposing the situation is would allow me to go with a Space Marine army and say...
I want all my Bikers to be Whitescares as they get that nice Jink Bonus.
My Devastators can be Imperial Fist because of that Tank Hunter thing they get.
My leader will be a Salamander as he gets that nice Master Crafted Weapon for free.
Ravenguard for my Jump Packs.
All tanks are Iron Hands for IWND.
Then a mix of everything else can be Imperial Firsts as that bolter drill / Iron Hands for the FNP, or Ravenguard for the Stealth and Scout things.

More fuel on this fire...

Units that have the following Factions are considered to be Armies of the Imperium: Adepta Sororitas, Astra Militarum, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Inquisition, Space Marines, Space Wolves.

So this would imply that the faction of all these armies are classed as Armies of the Imperium (in that sly round'a'bout way of reading things).
So if that was the case I would love to take a nice Grey Knight HQ and then as I dislike all space marine troop options I think I will go for 2 units of Astra Millitarum, I can then take a from of there Tanks as well as they are better than the Space Marine ones as well. The Terminators I will take will of course be either Space Wolves or Dark Angel Deathwing depending on the job. Also as said above taking Imperial Fist Devastators and stuff.

And yes I do realise that this last argument is a rather extreme version of the normal one, and if broken down doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

 

[Kreuger]

I can't find this "single source" limitation anywhere. It feels like a relic that people are remembering from previous editions. If you're referring the the first line of "Warbands of the Crimson Slaughter", my response is just below:

The wording is actually, "A Crimson Slaughter Army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Chaos Space Marines." It does not restrict on a detachment level. However this is not much use to either case because it present few options:...

"Army" isn't really the important term. If you read down the page in "Warbands of the Crimson Slaughter" every entry begins by talking about a Crimson Slaughter detachment.

If I'm reading the BRB correctly a detachment is not the limiting factor here. An Allied detachment seems to be a limiting factor because of the dated rules in the supplements.

All units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or No Faction).

Because Crimson Slaughter, Chaos Marines, and Black Legion all share the same faction and the rules for supplements suggest that these are all the same faction, and therefore cannot be taken as both primary and allied detachments in the same army (e.g. CSM primary CS allied, or CSM primary and BL allied).

However, I believe you can take multiple combined arms detachments instead of allied detachments. CAD doesn't include the same prohibition on factions. You'll still need to identify one as your Primary detachment.

So back to choosing a detachment. To choose a Crimson Slaughter combined arms detachment for example you buy units from Codex: CSM and upgrades from the Crimson Slaughter supplement. Within this detachment you may not mix crimson slaughter identified units with non-crimson slaughter identified units. Crimson Slaughter p.50 really covers all the command benefits such as fear, different possessed, and new warlord traits. So then based on the odd supplement and factions rules you could choose a second Combined Arms detachment from CSM, CD, etc.

 

[Uveron]

This thread is making a simple process very complex!

The Codex Crimson Slaughter itself says that it can Allie with Chaos Space Marines. And as rules in the Codex, can alter rules in the Core Book it means you can have A Chaos Space Marine codex CAD with a Chaos Space Marine Allie Detachment as long as one of them is a 'Crimson Slaughter Detachment'

 

[Kreuger]

Well, the CS codex says it can ally with CSM, and they can. The only weird part is that allying apparently can't be an "allied" detachment because CS and CSM are the same faction which is forbidden by allied detachments, but not combined arms detachments.

At least that's how it appears, RAW anyway.

 

[Vaz]

Holy fuck balls, this is boring, inane and nothing to do with RAW whatsoever.

 

[Uveron]

At least that's how it appears, RAW anyway.

Its not weird, the RAW clearly states that codex's can change core rules.

 

[Kreuger]

Holy fuck balls, this is boring, inane and nothing to do with RAW whatsoever.

Heh. I agree. But hey we're waaaay down the rabbit hole.

I'd just treat Crimson Slaughter as a faction and call it done.

 

[alt-f4]

An army, following up the definition until the Core Rulebook, is either "Unbound" or "Battle-forged". Let's focus upon the latter :

- A battle-forged army is made up of one (or more) Detachment(s).
- A Formation is a more restricted (in terms of unit selection, principally) Detachment.
- Detachments army lists are made up of units chosen from a Codex (in terms of cost, equipment and battlefield role).
- "Crimson Slaughter" and "Black Legion" supplements state that the army list comes from the CSM Codex and that the rules are added to the CSM ones.
- "Black Legion" supplement also states that only one supplement may be used for a detachment.
- All the specific CS or BL army rules are applied to "a detachment" (except the "Warlord Trait" rule, but the warlord is chosen from the Primaty Detachment, as stated into the Core Rulebook).

Considering it, I think that those supplements just add a layer upon any CSM detachment (formations included). A CSM CAD or Allied detachment may be turned to a "Crimson Slaughter" or "Black Legion" one, adding their related rules to its basic ones ("Ideal Mission Commander" for the former or "Objective Secured" for both).

It also means that a "Fallen Champions" formation from the "Cypher Dataslate" may also be turned into a CS or BL one (adding the related rules and restrictions to the formation ones).

That's how I understand the concept of "supplements" (but I may, of course, be wrong).