[bixeightysix]

Trying to put a good 2500 point list together with models I currently own. I'm short on transports/tanks...so lemme know which you think is better and some cheap upgrades I could do!

First List...
HQ:
Abaddon-275
Daemon Prince w/MoK, wings, warptime-175
Summoned Greater Daemon-100

TROOPS:
Zerkers(8) incl. SkullChamp w/PF (in Rhino w/EA)-258
PMs(9) w/2 meltaguns incl. Plague Champ w/PF (in Rhino w/EA)-302
CSMs(8) incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF and IoCG-145
CSMs(8) incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF and IoCG-145

HEAVY:
Defiler(2) w/DCCW-300
Oblits(3)-225

ELITE:
Terminators w/MoK(7) incl. Lightning Claw/Heavy Flamer(3), Chainfist/ Reaper Autocannon(2), Lightning Claws(1), Champ w/Lightning Claws(1)-395

FAST:
Bikers(3) IoCG, meltagun(2) incl. Champ-177

TOTAL-2497
I wanna have Abaddon run with the Termies, but them being out of a LR makes it tough...I would run em in a LR if I had one...but oh well. I'd have the bikers get to the enemy asap and pop the Greater Daemon. Have the CSM troops back holding objectives and if something goes wrong with bikers, the Daemon can come out with these guys. Prince is pretty much gonna try and take out random stuff and work as a decoy(hopefully) for the terminator squad. Not sure how it will work, but curious...

Second List...
HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer-165
Daemon Prince w/MoN, wings, Warptime-175
Summoned Greater Daemon-100

TROOPS:
Zerkers(8) incl. SkullChamp w/PF (in Rhino w/EA)-258
PMs(9) w/2 meltaguns incl. Plague Champ w/PF (in Rhino w/EA)-302
CSMs(8) incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF and IoCG-145
CSMs(8) incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF and IoCG-145

HEAVY:
Defiler(2) w/DCCW-300
Oblits(3)-225

FAST:
Bikers(3) IoCG, meltagun(2) incl. Champ-177

ELITE:
Chosen(5) w/meltagun(4) incl. Champ w/meltagun-160
Terminators w/MoK(6) incl. Lightning Claw/Heavy Flamer(2), Chainfist/ Reaper Autocannon(2), Lightning Claws(1), Champ w/Lightning Claws(1)-350

TOTAL-2502(over 2 points which is fine for casual play...but gotta get rid of 2 pts for tourney play)
I think this list might be a bit more solid...I'll have Kharn with the Zerkers, riding along the other rhino with PMs. The Defilers would be charging from the other side of the board along with the Daemon Prince while the Oblits tear through stuff as normal. Termies would hopefully come in and do some damage and I would outflank the chosen and if I get lucky pop them into an empty Rhino after the troops pop out. I would try and use the bikers the same way as in the first list...but if the chosen seem like they are hurting I would try and pop the greater daemon there. I feel like this list has a bit more "flexability"...like if something goes wrong, I'll still be okay. Whereas the first list, if I lose my termie squad with Abaddon it's pretty much game over.

Let me know what ya'll think. :victory:

 

[Primarch Lorgar]

I like your first list better, it has most of what you'll see at 2,500 pts:biggrin:

 

[mercer]

Lorgar have you got your head screwed on? The second list is a lot better but still needs work. Both lists appear to be the same except for HQ choices.

 

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

Your second list is indeed much better. You’re not sinking 500+ points in HQ’s, for one…

For you HQ’s, I would get rid of the DP or the Greater Daemon. I’ve never been a fan of Greater Daemons as they take away your CSM Champ in order to come in, and IMO, a PF hidden in squad is more useful.

Heavies look OK.

Your Troops look pretty good, though I’d use plasma on the PM”s and add two CSM’s with melta guns to the vanilla CSM squads.

Drop your bikers or add more of them. 3 guys will only be an expensive annoyance, not a threat.

Your termies are all over the place and have not transport. For their points cost you could add in another Chosen squad (give your first Chosen squad a Rhino). If you keep the melta set up a Rhino is a must. I’d only recommend taking Chosen without a vehicle unless you’re Infiltrating with a set of heavy weapons.

Even with these changes you’ll have enough points to add in some more bikers, so you could go that route.

Good hunting.

 

[bixeightysix]

Mercer, what do you think I could do with the second list? The differences are minimal, but I added the Chosen and took out Abaddon and put in Kharn. Small changes, but I'm limited to what I can do with the models I own.

Malaclypse, I'm not sure how the Greater Daemon would work, because I've never tried it. It's in there for more of a test run...but I can always do without it. I'll give that switch with the PMs and CSMs a try. I guess that 24" range would be more useful. As for the bikes...they were pretty much only for getting the GD out. If I take him out, taking them out as well would be in my best interest. As for the termies...I have these models...and I'm low on everything besides normal Marines, so I can't see myself not using these. I don't have a LR for them, but I have to figure out how to incorporate them. Maybe something like this...

7 Terminators
incl. 1 Champ w/Lightning Claws
3 w/Lightning Claws
3 w/Heavy Flamer and Chain Fist

I figure having the Heavy Flamers for hordes, and then the chain fist for armor. I've never used the Lightning Claws, but they seem very good. I'd have to Deep Strike these guys...which would cause them to get shot a bit when they come in...but that's the only way I can use them until I get my hands on a LR.

As for the Chosen...these guys always get singled out, and they definitely need a rhino...for the time being I'm short transports, so I'd have to outflank them and hopefully get lucky. Chosen can only take 1 heavy weapon unless I'm misunderstanding something. I guess I could throw one of those in just for the heck of it...

I'll try and throw a little something different together...I'd like to hear more thoughts on the first 2 lists, first though. What do people think about the Summoned Greater Daemon? Do they come in handy?

 

[mercer]

You should take monstrous creatures in pairs so this means dropping kharn for another prince. This way you've got two monstrous creatures on the table from the start and then another coming in. Btw I've recently started running a G.D and it works well, just make sure you've got champs in all units and they're naked so you don't waste any points then pop him where you need to plug gaps and require support. On, the G.D can assault when summoned, don't forget that

Berzerkers really should be in a land raider. In a rhino they will roll up possibly pop smoke if you haven't already and sit there and take the pain. Expect that rhino to get popped and the berzerkers attacked in some shape or form or expect your opponent to move so you end up playing a cat and mouse game and not getting any where. Though a land raider can move 12" then bail out 2" and then assault 6" giving 18" assault range and piling straight in instead of standing there.

Both CSM units should be 10 man strong and have dual special weaps. Not they actually do something besides taking up FOC.

Defilers are crapola. They don't know if shooting or assault so takes ages to get into the fight and when they do they've got WS3 so not good and shooting it's not brilliant. I had infact once had a Guard unit stay locked in combat with a Defiler after it failed to kill enough to do serious damage lol. You should replace these with more Obliterators.

3 Chaos Bikers aren't even a threat, just a pain in the arse. Get a min unit of Raptors with meltaguns and a icon and deep strike them in and let them do the business and if they take wounds you can re-roll leadership, awesome!

Chosen are ok but don't need the champion; it adds nothing to the unit and they need a rhino!

Chaos Terminators have got serious problems. They're so mixed up they're trying to do assault, long range shooting tackle vehicles. Firstly ditch all reaper canons; they're only good for foot slogging and you shouldn't do that anyway. Keep MoK if you want but MoT is better keep the chain fist to get vehicles if needed but take some combi weapons, perhaps combi flamers to match the heavy flamer. If you have the points perhaps go single claws to re-roll to hit but that will end up being a expensive unit.

I hope that's more cleared and better feedback and hopefully it will help you out

 

[Primarch Lorgar]

My head must have been onn backards!:shok: I looked again and noticed I'd missed everything after the oblits in the 2nd list, I agree with mercer now!:victory:

 

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

mercer's advice is good.

another way you could run this list is by taking two termicide units with HF, two combi-weapons and the standard PW.

that would allow you to keep your GD and you'd have more units coming in.

per what you mentioned, if you're putting two Defilers in your list, then you must own them. i've seen them use successfully, and then again no. the set up you have with them is the most common i see at my FLGS, and it works rather well, especially when taken in pairs.

ditto for the MC's but it's always an iffy thing for me: multiple MC's is rather nasty, which is something i like with Eldar, but no so much CSM. for me, if your HQ's enhance your army and do different things one MC is fine (i.e. two Warp Time Nugle Princes pretty much locks down what your army will do, but that's not a bad thing necessarily) but having different HQ's spreads out overall army flexibility.

but that's my theory, and not necessarily true for everyone and may not even work for every one. points cost is also a factor with me, for about the price of 2 DP's: i can take 3 Wraithlords, depending on load outs.

good hunting.

 

[bixeightysix]

Alright, I kinda took what you guys said, and threw something a little different together. Keep in mind these lists are a little weak because of my lack of Rhinos/Land Raiders (if anyone wants to donate, PM me!) :biggrin:

HQ:
DP w/MoN, Warptime, Wings-175
DP w/MoN, Warptime, Wings-175

TROOPS:
Zerkers(8) incl. Skull Champ w/PF (in Rhino w/EA)-258
Plague Marines(9) w/2 Plasmaguns incl. Plague Champ w/PF (in Rhino w/EA)-327
CSMs(10) w/2 Meltaguns and IoCG incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF-220
CSMs(10) w/2 Meltaguns and IoCG incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF-220

HEAVY:
Defiler w/DCCW-150
Defiler w/DCCW-150
Oblits(3)-225

ELITE:
Terminators(4) w/IoTzeentch, Heavy Flamer & Chainfist, Combi-Flamer(2), Powerfist-195
Terminators(4) w/IoTzeentch, Heavy Flamer & Chainfist, Combi-Flamer(2), Powerfist-195

FAST:
Chaos Bikers(3) w/IoNurgle & 2 Meltaguns incl. Aspiring Champ w/PF-209

It seems pretty flexible. Is that what you mean by having 2 termicide squads, Malaclypse? I've never tried them out, so I'm not sure. Overall I think it's fairly solid...considering I'm short on transports.

 

[bixeightysix]

One other thing I was thinking about would be to put the normal CSMs in the rhinos and run the Zerkers/Plague Marines behind them. I could take the Bikers out and replace them with a small 1ksons squad for holding the home objective...does that seem like a better strategy considering my lack of transport and since I don't have a LR for the Zerkers? That way they are not having to disembark and get tore up...

 

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

much tighter at least.

make the termie squads with three troopers and you've got good old fashioned termicide. IoT is purely optional, and keep in mind since it's termicide it will die quick, even with a 4++ save, so it's debatable as to whether you should even take it. also drop the PF as you already have CF.

change the combi-flamers to combi-melta.

lastly, not sure what to think about your bikers. i would almost switch them out for another Troops choice or a squad of Chosen. 3 bikers just feel too weak IMO; you need to be able to take casualties.

good hunting.

 

[Primarch Lorgar]

Now that, is a good list! I'd switch the combi flamers for combi meltas, and drop one oblit for 2 more bikers!:biggrin:

 

[mercer]

Meltaguns without Rhinos will fail. Drop Bikers replace with Raptors get Rhinos a.s.a.p Change Defilers to Obliterators = winner

Btw your terminators are 220 points not 195

 

[bixeightysix]

I think I'm gonna drop the bikers for another Troop, and throw the CSM squads in the rhinos and run the Zerkers/PMs behind them. That way they can assault as soon as they are in range. As for the Termies...either my army builder is on crack or I mis-printed what I meant for them to have. I'll double check, thanks for the heads up! I'll also switch those combi-flamers. I'll make a new list tonight and post it up.

I'm playing against a Dark Angels friend who has similar problems with lack of LRs and Rhinos. So I kinda have an Idea of what's coming. Thanks for the imput, I'll get back with an updated list.

 

[bixeightysix]

Alrighty, I think I got just about as solid of a list I can get with the models I currently own. Here it is...not sure I can make it any better, but still feel free to put some input in.

HQ:
Daemon Prince w/MoN, Warptime, Wings-175
Daemon Prince w/MoN, Warptime, Wings-175

TROOPS:
Zerkers(8) incl. Skull Champ w/PF-208
Plague Marines(9) w/2 Plasmaguns incl. Plague Champ w/PF-277
Thousand Sons(7) incl. Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change & Meltabombs-228
CSMs(10) IoCG, 2 Meltaguns, and Aspiring Champ w/PF (Rhino w/EA)-270
CSMs(10) IoCG, 2 Meltaguns, and Aspiring Champ w/PF (Rhino w/EA)-270

HEAVY:
Defiler w/DCCW-150
Defiler w/DCCW-150
Oblits(3)-225

ELITE:
Terminators(4) IoTzeentch, Hvy Flamer(1), Combi-Melta(2), Chain Fist(1)-185
Terminators(4) IoTzeentch, Hvy Flamer(1), Combi-Melta(2), Chain Fist(1)-185

Total:2498

Idea is to have the Thousand Sons hold the home objective. The CSMs in the Rhinos will deploy up front and the Zerkers/Plague Marines will roll in behind them. The Defilers will run along side the Rhinos trying to get in CC asap. DPs will just fly around taking care of whatever needs stomping and the Termies will hopefully die in honor! It seems like it'll work on paper...thoughts?

 

[Inquisitor Malaclypse]

that's an extremely solid list.

very fluffy Black Legion, a couple of surprises (termicide) here an there...

damn fine list sir.

go take some heads.

 

[mercer]

Alrighty, I think I got just about as solid of a list I can get with the models I currently own. Here it is...not sure I can make it any better, but still feel free to put some input in.

HQ:
Daemon Prince w/MoN, Warptime, Wings-175
Daemon Prince w/MoN, Warptime, Wings-175

TROOPS:
Zerkers(8) incl. Skull Champ w/PF-208
Plague Marines(9) w/2 Plasmaguns incl. Plague Champ w/PF-277
Thousand Sons(7) incl. Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change & Meltabombs-228
CSMs(10) IoCG, 2 Meltaguns, and Aspiring Champ w/PF (Rhino w/EA)-270
CSMs(10) IoCG, 2 Meltaguns, and Aspiring Champ w/PF (Rhino w/EA)-270

HEAVY:
Defiler w/DCCW-150
Defiler w/DCCW-150
Oblits(3)-225

ELITE:
Terminators(4) IoTzeentch, Hvy Flamer(1), Combi-Melta(2), Chain Fist(1)-185
Terminators(4) IoTzeentch, Hvy Flamer(1), Combi-Melta(2), Chain Fist(1)-185

Total:2498

Idea is to have the Thousand Sons hold the home objective. The CSMs in the Rhinos will deploy up front and the Zerkers/Plague Marines will roll in behind them. The Defilers will run along side the Rhinos trying to get in CC asap. DPs will just fly around taking care of whatever needs stomping and the Termies will hopefully die in honor! It seems like it'll work on paper...thoughts?

No rhinos for the first three squads; berzerkers won't even make it into assault! Give them rhinos drop the thousand sons. Then you'll be sorted, well apart from the defilers but likes like you like 'em!

 

[bixeightysix]

Thanks Malaclypse, it took some work, but I think it's pretty solid. I'd love to eventually make this a very fluffy Black Legion list, but I'm still pretty new, and only in the first book of Horus Heresy, so once I get further in, I'll start posting to get some advice on doing that. I'll let you know how this game turns out this weekend. Thanks again for the advice!

 

[bixeightysix]

No rhinos for the first three squads; berzerkers won't even make it into assault! Give them rhinos drop the thousand sons. Then you'll be sorted, well apart from the defilers but likes like you like 'em!

I have to go with this setup because I've only got 2 rhinos at the moment (but 2 more are on the way) I figure the best use to get out of them is have them running behind the rhinos. I think my oppenent will be focusing much more on DPs and Defilers to worry about Zerkers/PMs. Once I receive those 2 more rhinos, I'll adjust accordingly. :biggrin:

 

[Primarch Lorgar]

I have the same problem, rhinos are too damn expensive!:biggrin: Very fluffy, I like it!