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Discussion Starter #1
From an article I made on:
http://h2lat40k.blogspot.com/2013/11/condemnor-boltgun-update.html




The new Adepta Sororitas Codex has an Update:
So for those of us who have downloaded the codex all types/versions should be updated, go and re-download.

At first I thought "In many ways this is both a good ruling and much harder to make use of. You will have to maneuver so that the model you want to hit is actually the closest to your shooting. On the plus side, the hit can not be Look Out Sir'ed away as it isn't a wound but a hit".

Hey but wait a second, how do you determine if a psyker was hit? You roll to hit an entire unit, not just a single model in the unit, so does that mean that a hit on the unit means the psyker was hit since it is a part of the unit that was hit??? If there are multiple psykers are they they all counted as hit or do you just randomly choose one or something? I guess in play testing a guy at Black Library just chose a single psyker in the unit to get the Perils of the Warp.

https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions/posts/172415632953277

This was before the update to the codex

So really we are kind of back at the same place where we don't know what the rule actually does even after they supposedly "fix" it. For reference here is the old rule as it was when the codex came out:


So they changed it from any unit hit to any psyker hit, but you don't usually "hit" a single psyker, so they didn't really change the rule so the unclear part was resolved. Either rule was clear when talking about a single model being shot that had the psyker rule. It was the multiple psykers thing that was one part of the question and the other being that an entire unit did not usually have the psyker rule if only some models were psykers (the exception being Grey Knights Brotherhood of Psykers which is clear in its rules). So I guess we are still waiting for an actual real ruling for this.

If you want more than one in a squad you need either Priests, Dominions, Sororitas Command Squad, or a Canoness. One place where I might have wanted on was on the Seraphim Superior due to their greater mobility, but they can't buy from the ranged weapon's list options.

I looked through a little bit more, but couldn't see any other changes. One difference between the Apple and epub editions is apparently in the Apple version a Seraphim Superior can take an eviscerator, where the epub Black Library version only allows Canonesses and Priests to take them (it is under the definition of the * on page 76).

So mostly this is just a heads up for people that they at least tried to do a change, or for those just looking for information on the whole issue. Let me know if you want anything else clarified.

Other notes:
The Psyker henchmen in Grey Knights do not have the Psyker Special Rule. The Faq does imply they are "Psykers" though:

Page 3:
Q: W hen calculating the Assault value of the Culexus Assassin’s
Animus Speculum, how many Psykers does a unit of psykers such
as a unit of Grey Knights, Psykers in an Inquisitorial Henchman
Warband, or Imperial Guard Battle Psykers count as? (p21)
A: One.

Page 5:
Q: If a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, a unit of
Inquisitorial Henchmen with one or more Psykers in it, or any other
similar unit containing multiple Psykers is within 12” of a Culexus
Assassin, does the presence of that unit add +1 to the Animus
Speculum’s Assault value or +1 for each Psychic model present in the
unit? (p53)
A: Such a unit contributes +1 to the Animus Speculum’s assault
value no matter how many Psykers it consist of, unless those
Psykers have the Independent Character special rule in which
case each such Psyker contributes a +1.

Brotherhood of Psykers does allow the Perils to work due to ", or any attack that specifically targets psykers, " is included on page 21 of Grey Knights Codex.


I hope I did not break any forum rules by posting those pictures, it is really only done to help out by letting people know of the change and discuss it.
 

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Thanks Suijin. I don't see this "crossbowlter" becoming more popular thank to this "fix". basicaly ther's still an uncertain rule...sigh...such an update...
 

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Personally I don't see why this does not work in the same way as any other special weapon hit. You can't pick out a specific model unless you are a character and roll appropriatly. This can be a much more useful weapon against monsterous creatures as it causes a wound and ignores their high toughness. As they normally don't join units this makes the wound allocation argument irrelavent.
 

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I tagged the GW DE guys on Facebook about not being able to allocate hits and being unsure on how it works when you have a psyker in a regular squad...we'll see if anything comes of it I guess.

I encourage others to bug them too though so we can resolve this quicker. :p
 

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Not really seeing what the problem is here. The weapon and it's effect are clear...since they are triggered by a HIT not by a WOUND.

IF you are firing the Condemnor at a unit that contains a psyker, you only "definitively" HIT that model if a character gets a precision shot and designates the hit to the Psyker. Otherwise the "hit" was on the unit and the secondary effect doesn't harm the psyker (even if he ended up taking a wound, since wound allocation =/= hit rolls).

When used against a unit with "brotherhood of psykers", a character would suffer the first hit and Perils (per BoP USR), otherwise a random model in the unit suffers the perils.

In the other cases (like the henchmen) unless they specifically have the Psyker USR, they would not suffer the effects unless that is FAQ'd.

Moral of the story don't fire your single-shot combi weapon at a Psyker hidden in a unit unless you have some guaranteed method of precision shot or just feel lucky.
 

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A cool looking picture, would like to see some conversions for this too. Hopefully they properly clarify, in case it's not exactly like iamtheeviltwin said.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You don't allocate hits with a precision shot; you allocate that wound to a model of your choice. See page 63 of BRB.

The base issue is that you "hit" the unit, so how does that translate into "hitting" the Psyker that is part of the unit?

If there is only 1 psyker in the entire unit then we can probably just fudge the whole thing and say he gets the Peril, but is it fair to give a Peril to say 4 or 5 Psykers all in the same unit? Either way it would just be nice to have the rule actually work correctly according to the rules, whatever they decide.
 

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You don't allocate hits with a precision shot; you allocate that wound to a model of your choice. See page 63 of BRB.
Ah, you are correct sir.

I would guess that if there are multiples in a unit, then it would be randomly allocated (based upon the BoP rule).

The rule should probably read "saved or unsaved wound" instead of "hit" that would clear up the issue, the BoP rule would handle the issue of units of Psykers. (with the exception of the henchman listed above).
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Just realized that the new rule is exactly the same as the published Grey Knights Codex. It was probably written that way due to things like the Mindstrike Missiles which have a blast template that you can actually be hit by on a model by model basis.

The problem is still the same and there is a FAQ that changes the GK one to what was the Sisters of Battle WD one = psyker that suffers an unsaved wound from the weapon. Also the problem with this is the very unlikely chance that a psyker will ever suffer an unsaved wound from a S5 AP- one-shot weapon, wound allocation including LOS, etc. If the weapon was free it would still be a waste of time to take at that level. Almost everything in the game would be more likely to take a wound from a boltgun than a Condemnor Stake shot.

So yeah they could change it to the GK FAQ, but then it becomes a candidate for the worst weapon in WH40K again.
 

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Except psykers that can't be part of units, or are not commonly actually put in units, which there are plenty of actually. And a bunch of them are monstrous critters that you wouldn't have much of a chance to wound with a boltgun besides. Ever played against Tyranids? How about Chaos Daemons?

Besides, you actually have a better chance to hit a psyker in a unit with this one in the new edition, unless they are in the dead center of a swarm of models and then - it will be the same as last edition.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Except psykers that can't be part of units, or are not commonly actually put in units, which there are plenty of actually. And a bunch of them are monstrous critters that you wouldn't have much of a chance to wound with a boltgun besides. Ever played against Tyranids? How about Chaos Daemons?

Besides, you actually have a better chance to hit a psyker in a unit with this one in the new edition, unless they are in the dead center of a swarm of models and then - it will be the same as last edition.
Well actually it is impossible to "hit" the psyker in a unit. You can hit the unit, but you can only allocate wounds to the psyker, and most of those would be a character at least so the opponent could LOS the wound away.

A one-shot S5 AP- isn't really going to be worthwhile shooting at Flying Monstrous Creatures, even if it causes a Perils of the Warp on an unsaved wound.
 
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