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Corruption isn't a strictly linear thing though.
The corruption rate doesn't matter. The important point I was raising is that the Corsairs had centuries to become corrupted. In otherwords, they had centuries to build up their numbers, create fleets, ect.

Huron didn't necessarily amass his force in the 80 (sidereal) years since the fall of Badab. He's had a lot more (potentially).
 

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The corruption rate doesn't matter. The important point I was raising is that the Corsairs had centuries to become corrupted. In otherwords, they had centuries to build up their numbers, create fleets, ect.

Huron didn't necessarily amass his force in the 80 (sidereal) years since the fall of Badab. He's had a lot more (potentially).
Well my point was that you can't assume Huron's had more time just because his force is corrupted. It wouldn't take centuries. It wouldn't necessarily take years. So assuming Huron's had centuries based on that is faulty.

Plus,the fact that Huron's maybe had centuries is irrelevant. His recruits are coming from the materium (almost exclusively) and therefore have to have turned sometime after the Astral Claws did. Otherwise they joined the Red Corsairs before the Red Corsairs existed.
 

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So assuming Huron's had centuries based on that is faulty.
No no no...let me drag the quote out for you.

"In mere centuries, many of the Red Corsairs were as victimised by genetic disorder as the Traitor Legions dwelling within the Eye of Terror for millennia."

Also Blood Reaver states that the Red Corsairs have augmenting a space station with "centuries of raiding".

His recruits are coming from the materium (almost exclusively)
Source?

The Maelstrom is a very large place. On a single station within the Maelstrom, a relative few number of Night Lords slaves are able to gather up several hundred uncorrupted youth for implantation. And that is but one station.

EVEN if Huron was recruiting solely from the materium, how many recruits could he drag from a Hive's gangs? From a feral world? He could scoop up thousands, if not tens of thousands, of ripe potential spacemarines from a single deathworld. Recruits are rarely a problem if you're willing to spread your net wide enough.

Geneseed is the issue...but if it (or the Astartes it's implanted in) is chilling in the Maelstrom, then they have centuries for it to grow.
 

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No no no...let me drag the quote out for you.

"In mere centuries, many of the Red Corsairs were as victimised by genetic disorder as the Traitor Legions dwelling within the Eye of Terror for millennia."

Also Blood Reaver states that the Red Corsairs have augmenting a space station with "centuries of raiding".
Oh. Oops. I thought you were discussing how long it took them to get corrupted but you were actually basing the entire thing off the "mere centuries" bit. Now I feel foolish.

I'll point out (mostly to salvage some pride) that the language of those quotes is extremely vague and comes from an unspecified point in time. We don't know when exactly Blood Reaver takes place (we can speculate but we can't be sure). Personally I see it as the author being vague to avoid conflicting with established dates rather than very subtly hinting that the Red Corsairs have been active for longer than previously established.

The Maelstrom is a very large place. On a single station within the Maelstrom, a relative few number of Night Lords slaves are able to gather up several hundred uncorrupted youth for implantation. And that is but one station.

EVEN if Huron was recruiting solely from the materium, how many recruits could he drag from a Hive's gangs? From a feral world? He could scoop up thousands, if not tens of thousands, of ripe potential spacemarines from a single deathworld. Recruits are rarely a problem if you're willing to spread your net wide enough.
I didn't realize/remember the Maelstrom had planets in it. However I wasn't referring to creating new Marines. I was referring to other traitors and renegades joining, it should be obvious why those individuals would have to come from the materium.


Huron has somehow increased his force from ~200 (survivors of Badab) to ~100,000 (average Legion size) in at most a couple centuries. How is that possible? The Traitor Legions haven't grow noticeably over a far longer time scale and the number of Chapters going rouge hasn't suddenly spiked. The numbers there just don't add up.
 

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Personally I see it as the author being vague to avoid conflicting with established dates rather than very subtly hinting that the Red Corsairs have been active for longer than previously established.
Oh, we can get pretty close.

It happened around 994999.m41--The Fall of Vilamus.

Theoretically, I guess, the fleet from Hell's Iris (the space station) could have taken a long time.

We DEFINITELY know it's "sometime after the Badab War" (which ended in 912.M41) and sometime BEFORE the 13th Black Crusade (999.M41).

I didn't realize/remember the Maelstrom had planets in it.
it does.

"They’d already sailed past several worlds, through the heart of three systems. On one of the worlds, the oceans had boiled, visible even from orbit. Unnatural storms plagued the planet’s face, raining piss, acid and blood onto the continents below."

Huron has somehow increased his force from ~200 (survivors of Badab) to ~100,000 (average Legion size)
I don't think we've seen numbers to support THAT many. I'm thinking closer to 10-20k. But if someone could provide more solid numbers, I would be happy to read their sources.

The Astral Claws were going absolutely nuts in cultivating new geneseed, before before and during (perhaps especially) the Badab War. They also stole whatever they could (from ally or foe).

I can't imagine Vilamus is their first geneseed grab--though almost undoubtedly their most successful.
 

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Huron Blackheart is my favorite chaos Marine.
That said, read the CSM Codex Entries, 6th Rule Book short story, Blood Reaver, Gildar Rift, and Skull Harvest. You have all you need on the Blood Reaver.
 

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EVEN if Huron was recruiting solely from the materium, how many recruits could he drag from a Hive's gangs? From a feral world? He could scoop up thousands, if not tens of thousands, of ripe potential spacemarines from a single deathworld. Recruits are rarely a problem if you're willing to spread your net wide enough.

Geneseed is the issue...but if it (or the Astartes it's implanted in) is chilling in the Maelstrom, then they have centuries for it to grow.
Especially if your only criteria are psychosis and violence. I can't imagine the CSM are too worried about mutation, or the failure of the geneseed to implant in a candidate. Any ole warm body would do.

Another angle, although perhaps not too big, could be amassing rouge SMs already in the Eye like those in "Dead Sky, Black Sun" about Uriel Ventris doing his time in the Eye. The book describes him finding around 1-2 dozen Astares hiding out on the Iron Warriors planet. If word got around, it might attract a good 50 - 100 renegade Astares from different points in time to Huron's band... with their potential of replaning their geneseed.
 

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Especially if your only criteria are psychosis and violence. I can't imagine the CSM are too worried about mutation, or the failure of the geneseed to implant in a candidate. Any ole warm body would do.

Another angle, although perhaps not too big, could be amassing rouge SMs already in the Eye like those in "Dead Sky, Black Sun" about Uriel Ventris doing his time in the Eye. The book describes him finding around 1-2 dozen Astares hiding out on the Iron Warriors planet. If word got around, it might attract a good 50 - 100 renegade Astares from different points in time to Huron's band... with their potential of replaning their geneseed.
What really weird is in the Iron Warrior Omnibus, Vaanes call himself a Red Corsair! I was like how? Your not in the Maelstrom, and you do not follow Huron, WTH?!
 

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What really weird is in the Iron Warrior Omnibus, Vaanes call himself a Red Corsair! I was like how? Your not in the Maelstrom, and you do not follow Huron, WTH?!
I believe he mentioned he used to be a Red Corsair; and since they are a mostly loose warband of renegades it is far from impossible for him to have been one of them and then leave at some point to pursue his own agenda.

Its also far from impossible for him to have been in the maelstrom at some point, since we know very little about when Vaanes went renegade and how long it has been since then.
 

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I believe he mentioned he used to be a Red Corsair; and since they are a mostly loose warband of renegades it is far from impossible for him to have been one of them and then leave at some point to pursue his own agenda.

Its also far from impossible for him to have been in the maelstrom at some point, since we know very little about when Vaanes went renegade and how long it has been since then.
Thats true.

It was also written Pre-Badab re vamp when red corsairs were just a bunch of renegades from various chapters, they crossed out their previous markings and chapter logos with red crosses.
Thats true as well.
 

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Thats true as well.
If this is true, then my question would be this; have the Red Corsairs always sold themselves as servants of Choas? I remember back a few years (maybe 6-8) that they were more just Renegades; like pirates belonging to no specific faction whatsoever.

Is that how they were or did that change? Or have they always been Choas oriented?
 

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Is that how they were or did that change? Or have they always been Choas oriented?
Scanning through the Imperial Armours that cover the Badab War, it doesn't appear they worshiped Chaos. Indeed, for the majority of the conflict the worlds the Astral Claws governed kept faithful to the Emperor.

Towards the end of the war, Huron did eventually renounce the Emperor, though there seemed to be no overt sign of Chaos worship even at this point.

I'd hazard sometime after fleeing to the Maelstrom, did the Astral Claws finally fall to Chaos.
 

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Scanning through the Imperial Armours that cover the Badab War, it doesn't appear they worshiped Chaos. Indeed, for the majority of the conflict the worlds the Astral Claws governed kept faithful to the Emperor.

Towards the end of the war, Huron did eventually renounce the Emperor, though there seemed to be no overt sign of Chaos worship even at this point.

I'd hazard sometime after fleeing to the Maelstrom, did the Astral Claws finally fall to Chaos.
So if this is all true Hailene are there any credible sources that state when the corsairs and Huron actually turned Choas worhsippers? It clearly displays in the recent short novel, "The Tyrant's Chamion," that Huron is being kept alive by machina that is Choas oriented. The "Maze," the three warriors also fight through is a realm of Choas, and each Champon represents an aspect of Choas.

Anyone got this answer, I really cannot find it around????
 

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I'd hazard sometime after fleeing to the Maelstrom, did the Astral Claws finally fall to Chaos.
Yeah it was after the whole melta gun to the face incident that he turned, his options were: Don't swear allegiance and die or turn to Chaos and live. He already hated the Imperium after what 4 years? of war so it wasn't a hard choice. It was only at the very end that he turned away from the Emperor as you said, the war started because of conflict with the Administration rather a crisis of faith regarding the big E. The IA books on it make this quite clear, at no point in them do they say his turn to Chaos happened prior to the Fall of Badab, they only mention that the most die hard AC's showed no signs of allegiance to the Imperium on their armor.
 

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Don't swear allegiance and die or turn to Chaos and live.
I'm not sure if it came down to that. In the Codex it says Huron recovered after his injuries during the Fall of Badab and his followers hailed it as a dark miracle...

But in Blood Reaver we get some narration from an apothecary that helped Huron recover from those injuries. It seemed like some good old fashioned bionics, surgery, and will-power that allowed Huron to survive.

He already hated the Imperium after what 4 years?
Less than 2 years. He spat on his oaths to the Emperor in 311.911 M.41 and the Fall of Badab happened in 118.913 M.41.

So if this is all true Hailene are there any credible sources that state when the corsairs and Huron actually turned Choas worhsippers?
Sometime after the Fall of Badab (913m.41) and before the Fall of Vilamus (999.m41) without a doubt.

I'd assume earlier. I'll look for a specific source.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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Could be either or really, what is certain is that it was Post Badab Fall.

I would argue that there is a difference between hating (or at least not liking the way it's run and wanting to see it fall) the Imperium but still loving the Emperor and following him and hating the Imperium and falling to Chaos. An entire sect of the Inquisition follows the former way of thinking actually but is still 100% loyal to the Emperor (Recongregators). 200 years sounds a long time to make the decision to turn his back on the Emperor and turn to Chaos, what source does it say that in? In the IA books it makes specific mention of at the Fall of Badab all outward symbols of loyalty to the Imperium by the Astral Claws as an organization was gone.
 

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(I made a mistake and forgot to quote the YEARS...I gave the year fraction and the millennium, whoops! I edited my previous post.)

I would argue that there is a difference between hating (or at least not liking the way it's run and wanting to see it fall) the Imperium but still loving the Emperor and following him and hating the Imperium and falling to Chaos.
I agree as well. Huron turns his back on EVERYTHING the Imperium represents in 911.

I don't figure he begins Chaos worship until after the Fall of Badab when he begins chilling in the Maelstrom...which is at least a couple more years.
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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I agree as well. Huron turns his back on EVERYTHING the Imperium represents in 911.
You sure on that? From my reading of the IA books on the BW I would say it wasn't untill the end of the war that he went "fuck all you pricks", I was under the impression that at the start of the war till up until about the time he did the dirty to the Salamanders and Executioners (who subsequently went wrong and attacked both sides) that he was simply using some rather ah shall we say strong negoitation tactics to convince the Administration that he should be allowed to continue building his forces (because that was always going to work out well as a negotiating tactic).
 

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Very much sure. Check out page 31 of IA 10. He describes the Imperium of Man as a "Bankrupt, rotting carcass, fit only for the grave..." He then orders to remove all "signs and symbols of Imperial authority, culture and creed were cast down in a firestorm of iconoclasm, and the mass executions on Badab Primaris of clerics and functionaries were reported to last for many weeks without pause."

Pretty big middle finger, I think.
 
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