[Red Orc]

Sorry, to start; 'codexes' isn't a word, and I don't plan to use it. If that narks anyone, I do apologise, but there's only so much torturing of the language I'm prepared to take.

Anyway, something that strikes me as very odd is that the non-codex marines (DA, BA and now Chaos) have five-man blocks and their weapons options are dependent on these - while Codex SM, exemplified by the Ultramarines, the most Codex it is possible to be, can take min-max squads, eight-man squads, six-man las-plas squads etc.

Does it strike anyone else as *a bit silly* that the only way to field a non-codex SM army (of either flavour) is to use Codex SM?

This is why I'm currently working on a Chaos list, using Codex SM (and no demons, unfortunately!)

(I know nothing about Space Wolves BTW, no idea how they fit into this.)

:cyclops:

 

[Beamo]

the wolves still have their different squad sizes, but have always been allowed a lot of their option based on the number of men in the squad.

wolves can't take las-plas tac squads to begin with, though.

 

[Galahad]

Just wait til the revised SM codex comes out

 

[asianavatar]

Isn't due to updates. In time when the space marine codex is redone, I am sure that the ultramarines will be forced to have five men blocks and restricted weapon options.

 

[Engelus]

so when the Black Templars get redone, are they going to be forced to take 10 or 20 man blocks?

I'm actually quite worried about this.

 

[asianavatar]

No, but if you take a 5 man block you will be limited to one special weapon or something like that. It seems like GW wants to limit min max stuff.

 

[Engelus]

my crusader squads are almost always 5 marines and 5 neophytes with a power weapon and flamer/meltagun

Guess I can say goodbye to that.

 

[Elchimpster]

I dunno what's going on w/ BT. The way they mix neophytes in the squads...so un-codex-like. Maybe you'll be set using the BT rules until they make new ones.
:lol:

 

[The Wraithlord]

Be quite awhile for the BT's to get an update considering that they just had one not long ago. You should be safe for awhile Eng

 

[MarzM]

I dont think they will chage BT's much anyways. Their so far away from a codex chapter that i feel most of the changes will be pretty minor.


MarzM :mrgreen:

 

[DaemonsR'us]

MarzM strikes a good point.. BT's arent really much of a "standard" codex chapter, they really like doing their own thing so i doubt highly they will be standardized... since well they really arent a standard chapter

 

[Red Orc]

... but then neither are BA or DA.

And it's hardly the case that the Chaos Legions are 'standard chapters'. Yet they've been 'standardised'.

Though as has been pointed out, BT were re-done a couple of years ago so *should* be OK for a couple more.

:cyclops:

 

[Galahad]

BA and DA were largely codex chapters with special rules and units.

They weren;t like Wolves or Templars with entirely different army setups than normal. Tha Angels still had exactly the same squads as everyone else, barring Death Company, Ravenwing and Deathwing.

As for Chaos, traitors or not, they still had standard squads. They just had different names and a few different options, but CSM and Havovs were functionally the same as Tacs and Devs.

Meanwhile, Chaos hasn't been *that* 'standardized' you still buy minis individually, everyone but straight CSM squads can have small, gun-laden squads, and almost all squads can still go as high as 20 men.

BTs are different enough to be save...besides, they;ve already had their 4th ed codex, so don;t expect to see changes til 5th

 

[Jacobite]

But then again who ever uses squads of Chaos Marines (or any other troop type other than Orks, Nids, DE or Conscripts) that have 20 men in them?

 

[Galahad]

Someone who REALLY doesn't want their lascannon and icon destroyed.

Get the points together and your 1k Sons squad becomes a Sorcerer with a 4+ invul save, 20 wounds, and up to 40 AP3 shooting attacks ;-)

Even just a regular CSM squad with icon of Nurgle or Tzeentch becomes an almost unkillable unit that is going to hold the hell out of any objective it gets near and snipe your tanks with its indestructible lascannon.

Or better, a 20 man havoc squad. You can throw away 16 wounds before you ever lose those big guns.

Not saying all your squad should be 20 men, but one or two could really throw your enemies for a loop

 

[hephesto]

Great, one pie plate template later and your opponent has killed a 400+ points unit........the 20 men rule is to me a non-issue, nobody playing a normal points limit game is going to be insane enough to get a unit of tooled up CSM. Now normally armed they might be worth it, 20 with icon and two weapons. Now if you spend 30-50 points more you can have two 10 men squads that forces your opponent to spread his fire, gives you more heavy firepower and 2 champs.

 

[Red Orc]

Galahad, I know little of the Space Wolves (and indeed BT, even though I forgot about them in my original post), and in many ways I completely agree with you; I'm afraid I'm not being terribly clear about what I mean.

I'm talking about 2 different things, and using the same words to describe them, which probably doesn't help.

1 - the fluff; for fluff purposes, the 'standard' chapters are Ultramarines & those listed in the traits section of Codex SM who more-or-less adhere to the teachings of the Codex Astartes; Chaos Legions, the DA, BA, SW and BT, well, not so much, if at all.

2 - the rules used to represent these differences; as GW does all its books at different times, they are not terribly consistent - emphasising different things at different times.

It's the dichotomy between extremely divergent fluff, eg Death Company, or the Chaos Legions, and a 'one-size-fits-all' approach to organisation (5/10 man squads, 'quantum jumps' for special/heavy weapons), as opposed to a fluff that stresses the similarities (all these chapters more or less follow the Codex Astartes) coupled with 'non-standard' organisation (min-max las-plas, 6 man devs etc) that I find... inconsistent.

*Logically* (as if such a thing should apply to a made up game! :wink: ) it makes more sense for Chaos (or DA or BA) to be able to take 8-man special&heavy tac squads, than for the Crimson Fists, say. But such is not currently the case in the rules.

Which is why I'm trying to build a Codex SM Chaos list

:cyclops:

 

[Galahad]

Great, one pie plate template later and your opponent has killed a 400+ points unit........the 20 men rule is to me a non-issue, nobody playing a normal points limit game is going to be insane enough to get a unit of tooled up CSM. Now normally armed they might be worth it, 20 with icon and two weapons. Now if you spend 30-50 points more you can have two 10 men squads that forces your opponent to spread his fire, gives you more heavy firepower and 2 champs.

Who says you've got your guys bunched up? I mentioned nurgle and tzeentch. Feel no pain on plague marines, 4+ invul save on sons, 5+ on normal havocs or CSM with icon of tzeentch...you don't need to worry about hiding them behind terrain, so why not spread them out and just own a large chunk of the board?

I'm not saying a lot of smaller squads isn't a wise investment. I'm just saying one or two huge squads can have their place and be effective. You have to admit, 20 havocs with 5+ invul saves can be very nasty to try and deal with.

Red
I see what you;re saying but, as I said, wait for the revised SM codex to come out and a lot of those inconsistencies will vanish.

I'm not saying they're doing a good job with this bass-aackwards approach to updating the space marines. just that, given time, they'll be back in line.

Frankly, I think Jervis should have redone the SM codex first, then released a new chapter codex every couple months in the white dwarf. The whole point of these revisions is to scale back on abusive tactics, but the wide-open cheesemongering Traits players who are most often guilty of these tactivcs, get a free pass for a few yearsa while their power grows compared to everyone else.

I'm not saying it isn't retarded. Just that you should give it some time and it;ll all fall into place.

 

[Viscount Vash]

It the price we have to pay for the current way of updating the game.
It used to be done by axing all the codices, then all the army lists had to be taken from the BRB. Then a similar problem occured as the first new codices were released as some players got new rules whilst others still had the basic BRB rules.

At least with this way you don't loose certain armies that will take years to get a codex. (If I remember that was the official GW reason for the rolling edition of 40k.) Although it is getting hard to know which edition we are currently in, 4th, 4.5? :lol:

There will always be cheesmongers and they will always have some cheese to pedal. (Lash of Submission?)