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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I think a lot of us can agree that the cover system is pretty crappy and nonsensical.

A marine in a bunker is just as easy to wound with a bolter as a marine in an open field, but a marine standing behind a fence post can survive a hit from a meltagun that blows through tank armor like tissue paper.

But adding to saves or layering saves can make things complicated and make it so that some units are almost impossible to kill if they're in cover.

So why not use cover to make you harder to hit, rather than treating a picket fence as an indestructible shield?

Here's a rough sketch of the possible mechanics of it.
For simplicity sake, use the same cover categories that are already in place for cover saves.

A unit that has concealment has a chance of forcing a unit that shoots at it to reroll *hits*. Roll once and apply the result to the entire attacking squad for that shooting phase. If the defending unit makes its cover roll then the attacking player must reroll hits against that squad.

Light concealment (bushes, grass, etc) Reroll hits on a 5+
Medium concealment (crates, pipes, partially behind hills, etc) 4+
Heavy concealment (ruined buildings, wrecks, etc) 3+
Fortified Position (bunkers) 2+

So a unit of guard are holed up in a ruined building. A squad of marines hose it down with bolter fire. The IG player tolls a 4 on his cover check and succeeds. The Marines player now has to roll his hits twice for them to count.

While this does add a fair amount of rolling, I think it's something that can be done quickly.

Attacker declares hel;s firing on the unit in concealment. The defending player makes a concealment roll. If he passes, the player then rolls as normal, picks out his hits and the n rolls them again. It adds one or two rolls, but it;s quick.

You'll notice I cranked up the roll vs the old cover save figure, but I think it's a fair number considering we;re taking about not being able to see your target clearly.

And because it's a reroll rather than a save or outright miss then high BS armies still come out ahead of the curve. It only makes sense that a space marine will be able to shoot through concealment better than an ork.

I would also suggest adding a rule that Sniper weapons reduce concealment by one level (since they're usually aiming for a smaller target anyway)

EDIT: Here is the current revision of the Concealment Rules
Alright, here's the current 'final' version of my Concealment rule. Of course, if people keep coming up with good questions and suggestions it's bound to change.

Concealment replaces Cover Saves, but has no impact on Line of Sight or Night Fighting rules.

Concealment
Concealment cribs many rules from the Cover rules on p25. Namely Units Partially in Cover and When do Models Count as in cover. (If the unit has more models in concealment than out it gets a concealment roll, if not then it doesn't get a chance at concealment, and models can get concealment rolls from terrain up to one size smaller than them)

Models which are concealed are still visible. They may be targeted normally by powers and effects that do not require attack rolls. Line of Sight is not impacted by concealment (Subject to the normal rules for area terrain and the like)

When units are in concealing terrain they become harder to hit reliably. When an attacker can't see the whole target it becomes increasingly likely that the attack will miss, either by impacting harmlessly against the obscuring material, or by blasting through, only to find out that the target's center of mass wasn't where the shooter thought it was.

To represent this, anyone firing at a unit which is Concealed must reroll any hits scored against the Concealed unit. Any ability or effect that allows a model to reroll his misses only applies to the initial attack roll and not to the subsequent reroll. Any effects that depend upon the attack roll, such as Rending or Gets Hot! apply only to the first attack roll, and not to the reroll.

If a weapon with Rending rolls any 6s on their initial attack roll, set these hits aside and reroll them separately from the rest of the hits from that weapon. If they score a hit again (even if it's not a 6) then it still counts as a Rending attack and goes on to ignore armor and inflict wounds as if a 6 had been rolled.

If you reroll hits on a weapon with the Gets Hot! rule you will NOT suffer an overheat, should you roll within that weapon's overheat range.

Template weapons, of course, ignore concealment. Any effect that ignores Cover should also ignore Concealment

Concealment vs Blast
Against blast weapons (including Ordinance, Barrage, and Large Blast) roll to hit (or roll scatter dice) normally. If non-blast weapons are being fired as well then roll the blasts separately. If the target unit makes its Concealment Check do *not* reroll to hit or scatter with the blast weapons. Instead, place the blast marker as normal. Any model entirely covered by the marker suffers a hit on a 4+. Any model partially covered is hit on a 4+ as well, but the initial hit must be rerolled to count.

Example: A Space Marine fires a Frag Missile against a unit of Eldar Guardians in the woods. The Space Marines player rolls a 5 and successfully hits. The Eldar player rolls a 6 and makes his Concealment Check. The Space Marines player places his blast marker so that it covers one Guardian and touches two others. The Space Marines player rolls first for the model entirely covered. He rolls a 4 and successfully hits that model. Then he rolls two dice for the ones partially covered. His luck holds out and he rolls a 5 and a 6, both hits. But die to Concealment he must re-roll these two hits. This time he rolls a 1 and a 4, so one of the models is saved by his concealed position, successfully ducking for cover and avoiding the deadly fragmentation, while the other two are caught up in the blast and must now check to see if wounds are generated and armour saves made as normal.

Concealment Check
To determine if a unit gains the benefit of Concealment, it must be in concealment-granting terrain and it must pass a Concealment Check after the attacker rolls his shooting attacks and determines what hits, if any, were made.

The roll to be made depends upon the Degree of Concealment that the terrain offers. For the sake of simplicity, degrees of concealment are broken down into categories rather than how much of the model it actually covers.

Degrees of Concealment
Light (5+): Bushes, tall grass, fences.
Moderate (4+): Loose crates/barrels, pipes, woods/jungle, partially behind hill crests.
Heavy (3+): Walls, ruined buildings, wrecks, craters, gun pits, trences, sandbags, buildings, big rocks and rubble.
Total (2+): Bunkers, fortifications.

Any ability or condition that would normally add to cover save instead adds to the Degree of Concealment. Unlike most situations, however, 2+ is not the cap. Should your bonuses push your Concealment Check past 2+ you are automatically considered Concealed and no Concealment Check is needed.

If you meet or beat the number given for your Degree of Concealment, then your unit is considered Concealed and the attacker must, as detailed above, reroll any hits against you in the shooting phase.

Units in positions that offer any degree of Concealment are counted as being in cover for the purposes of Assaults. Cover in assaults is not changed by Concealment rules.
 

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i kinda of like that idea because it kinda makes no difference.

but i think he should have to say at the stare if wants to make him reroll before he rolls other wise if he gets a bad roll he will say no
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #3
re-read the post, George. I explained how it works.

Attacker declares he's going to shoot the concealed unit.
Defender makes a concealment roll to see if he can force the attacker to reroll hits.
Attacker rolls to hit, rerolling if the defender made his concealment roll.

When the defender makes his roll doesn;t really matter that much, so long as he does it before wounds are rolled.

You could fire on the guy, roll to hit and then have the defender say "Don't forget the concealment from these bushes" and then roll his concealment check after the initial hits are scored. it doesn't really matter if it's rolled before or after since either way the attacker either rerolls or he doesn't.

In fact, maybe I should revise it so that the concealment roll explicitly comes after the shots are rolled. After all, if the attacker misses with everything there's no point in rolling for concealment.
 

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Grey Knight Converter
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I think it a pretty good idea, would rerolls to hit for stuff like mastercrafted and twin linked be taken after the rolls for cover. Also how would template weapons work which don't require a roll to hit?
 

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ah so it is how i want

but im saying

roll for concealment
i roll 30 guys 1 shot hit
i re roll 30 shots hit

im fine with that
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
You're misunderstanding, George. You only reroll the *hits*

This represents the cover making it harder for you to hit the target. So you roll 30 shots but only get one hit. If the defender makes his cover roll then you have to reroll that hit and could end up missing.

The idea is that concealment makes you harder to hit.

I think it a pretty good idea, would rerolls to hit for stuff like mastercrafted and twin linked be taken after the rolls for cover. Also how would template weapons work which don't require a roll to hit?
Good questions.

I would say, for the sake of simplicity reroll misses first.

Template weapons would ignore concealment just like they ignore cover now.

Scatter weapons are a challenge, but I would be tempted to say that if an artillery shell lands on your head, it doesn't matter if the gunner can't see you, the shell still landed.

So I guess in this case ordinance would ingore concealment.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #8
That would be the same as with twinlinked and master crafted.

If you have an ability that lets you reroll misses then you reroll your misses *first* then reroll the hits if the defender makes his concealment check.

If you have a power that acts like a shooting attack (requires a roll) then it gets rerolled just the same as other shooting attacks.
 

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Gala the problem with the re-rolling first will cause someone to whinge about the re-rolling a re-roll. You'd be better off saying stuff that's twin linked ect would circumvent said problem be it deluge of fire whatever. That way you don't have the re-rolling re-rolls problem :( Other then that it seems like a decent idea.
 

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Gala the problem with the re-rolling first will cause someone to whinge about the re-rolling a re-roll. You'd be better off saying stuff that's twin linked ect would circumvent said problem be it deluge of fire whatever. That way you don't have the re-rolling re-rolls problem :( Other then that it seems like a decent idea.
So twin linked or master crafted would get one roll and that's it?
Instead of getting a re-roll, they get one and no-re-roll (for hits or misses)?

I can live with that.
 

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Grey Knight Converter
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But that in a shooting phase where you are targeting stuff not in cover MC and TL don't give you any advantages, or is it that they get their normal rules when not shooting into cover.

I think scatter weapons avoiding cover all together is way too strong. How about something like the player takes that "cover roll" for every guy hit by the weapon. So if a unit is in trees and 6 guys get hit by a template and two partials. Roll for partial hits than for each guy hit roll a dice. In this case a 5+ avoids the hit on one guy. Although I think that ordinance should alter the roll somewhat, maybe making it needing a +1 or +2 for the roll.
 

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Yeah, having ordnance weapons ignore terrain is a little strong. Guess weapons I'm more ok with ignoring terrain since mortars tend to come from above and are great for messing up infantry behind cover. Foxholes and dense area terrain are another issue, however.

Cover saves work alright as an abstraction of the benefit of cover. If the wailing doom (enormous flaming sword) can hit a grot and not hurt it (by rolling a 1 to wound), then cover saves work alright. Not to say your method doesn't have merit, too, though it would bias the game in favor of SMs/CSMs/anything that gains less benefit from a cover save due to armor.
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
There seems to be some confusion about how TL/MC/Reroll Miss effects work.

You reroll your misses *before* the concealment takes effect. You do not get a second reroll if your hit becomes a miss due to concealment. If some of your attacks miss on the second roll that just represents an otherwise accurate shot missing due to not being able to see the target. Just as if you had hit with a normal weapon but were caused to miss because of concealment. Can't hit what you can't see.

As for ordinance...what would you suggest? Rerolling the scatter die if it comes up as Hit?
I thought of that initially, but I decided against it because A: It's hard enough to hit with the damned things, and B: Hiding behind a box shouldn't cause an artillery shell to overshoot you by a hundred feet.

Really, short of either ignoring cover or bringing back cover saves for ordinance, I can;t think of a solution that makes sense
 

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Grey Knight Converter
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How about what I suggested about the scatter with the player rolling a concealment roll for each guy under the template?
 

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Executive Nitpicker
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Discussion Starter #15
Sorry, I missed your actual suggestion for some reason.

It's a good idea. Roll a concealment check for each model under the template (perhaps reduce the level of the cover by one) so tall grass and bushes are no help, crates and barricades are 5+, ruins and wrecks and the like are 4+ and bunkers are 3+.

Successful cover check negates the hit? Or maybe a successful cover check for half strength (like not getting the hold over a tank reduces the strength by half), representing the cover soaking up shock and schrapnel but not making you totally safe.
 

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I would say that ordinance weapons should negate concealment saves. It makes sense to me, you don't really have to see a particular model to hit them with a shell from a leman russ, you just need to hit in the general area.

I like this whole idea a lot, I think I'll playtest it with a friend on vassal tonight. I am a little worried about how much it will benefit marines compared to guardsman though, they are a little shafted already without having only 25% of their shots hitting a space marine squad that's in cover.
 

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That would be the same as with twinlinked and master crafted.

If you have an ability that lets you reroll misses then you reroll your misses *first* then reroll the hits if the defender makes his concealment check.

If you have a power that acts like a shooting attack (requires a roll) then it gets rerolled just the same as other shooting attacks.
thats nice i like that but what about mind war ?
 

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Grey Knight Converter
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I think it would work like ordinance and take a concealment roll before the power works. So test for psychic power, target fails concealment roll, go through rolls for Mind War. It makes more sense than taking the concealment after wounds are figured out.
 
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