[paddlepop lion]

Hi guys,

Been a while since I have posted here because I have been leading the charge on a system to help balance the game out.

The game has gotten pretty crazy since 5th edition and with the new Eldar rumors it seems now more than ever tournaments need to employ some kind of comp system.

Community Comp is a system to grade the power level of armies ultimately for use as a comp score in tournaments but is also very useful as a yard stick for causal games.
When grading your army you will compare which units you have in your army to the relevant pages in the Community Comp document and tally up all the "credits" you have spent.

Community Comp is a dynamic system that changes when new books come out and is periodically tweaked for a constant pursuit of more accurate scoring.
We recognise that no one person or even small group of people can ever have enough experience to judge the power of an army without bias.
To minimise the bias we maintain a council of 15 people to engage in rigorous debate about how many credits each unit or combo should cost and we are constantly probing the community for feedback and suggestions.


In addition to the comp scoring we have made a set of custom missions that go a long way to providing balance by giving players multiple angles from which to approach the mission.
Basically you stick a capped kill points component, Eternal War component and a slightly modified Maelstrom of war component into one mission.
Players earn VPs from each component which all add together and the most VPs wins.


You can find all this on our website www.communitycomp.org/
or contact us on our facebook page www.facebook.com/CommunityComp

 

[neferhet]

I am actually scared by your blatant delusion about bringing "balance" on WH40K :laugh:
Lots of work on this stuff...still, have you playtested it? I'd like to view/read some battle reports and list build using your credit system.
Honestly, and no offense, it looks like Sisyphus endeavour... (yeat, here i am, reading trough the document...)

EDIT: also, i note that Kayros with grimore comes in at 14 (or am i mistaken?) credits, wich is 2 Imperial Knights...something feels wrong here...
Also, 2 land raiders are considered the same as an Imperial Knight...while the necron monolith is just 1 point??? again, wrongness ensues, imo.
And you BANNED the stompa??

 

[MidnightSun]

I'm going to wait until I've seen more than one unit from the Eldar book before I cry carnifex on them.

People have been bitching about this since 5th edition. Eldar and Tau are nothing new, they're just not called Leafblower and Razorwolves anymore.

 

[paddlepop lion]

yes its been play tested quite extensively, pretrty much every tournament that runs in the states of Victoria and South australia now use it. West Australia are beginning to use it as are ACT and NSW will soon be predominately Community Comp.
Its also used in Italy, Finland and starting to be used now in New zeland.

We have the army lists from several tournaments available as an example we can present but for a taste of that below is the list i have been playing are recent major events. I win most of my games and its one of the tougher lists at these events.
I am the kind of guy who trys to break the system and grind as many points out as i can. Im not a dick about it, im a good sport but i am what you might call a power gamer. This system really is designed to prevent power gamers from making really hard armies.


1850 pts eldar CAD // dark eldar allied
Asuremen

Farseer with Singing spear, Falochous wing, runes of whitnessing

9 Harlequins (codex eldar ones) with shaddow seer and all of them with harlequins kiss

5 dire avengers in wave serpent with scatter lasers, shuriken cannon and holo fileds

9 jetbikes with 3 shuriken cannons and a warlock on bike with singing spear

6 jetbikes with 2 shurien cannons with a warlock on bike with singing spear

3 war walkers with scatter lasers and star engines

Bastion with escape hatch and comms relay

Archon with armor of misery, shaddow field, hawywire grenades and husk blade

5 kabalite warriors in a raider with torment grenade launchers and night shields with a dissintergrator.



This list won the recent 1850 tournament called the western smash

HQ:

Mephiston - 175

Librarian (lvl 2) with force axe, combi-melta. Veritas Vitae (Warlord) - 115

Troops:

Tactical Squad (5) with Heavy Flamer. Drop Pod - 115

Tactical Squad (5) with combi-melta and meltagun. Drop Pod - 125

Elites:

Command Squad (5) with 3 melta guns, 2 storm shields. Drop Pod - 185

Fast Attack:

Drop Pod - 35

Drop Pod - 35

Heavy Support:

Vindicator with over-charged engines - 130


Grey Knight Allied Detachment:

HQ:

Grey Knight Librarian (lvl 2) with Nemesis Warding Staff and combi-melta - 120

Troops:

Strike Squad (5) - 110

Elites:

Purifier Squad (10) with 4 incinerators - 270

Heavy Support:

Dreadknight with Nemesis Greatsword and Personal Teleporter - 170

Legion of the Damned Deatchment:

8 Legion of the Damned with Combi-Grav, Meltagun, Multimelta and the Animus Malorum - 265




Overwhelmingly players are agreeing that the community comp format is the best they have played in.
The victorian state championships was a particulartly good example of this. Its traditionally a no comp event so the gloves are off. But with 7th the way it is we really couldnt justify running the event that way because we knew there were like 5 players who would do horrible things to the others.
We allowed players to spend up to 14 credits but we didnt use a comp score and we use the Community Comp missions. It was widely accepted as the most ballanced 40k we had all played.

There are teething problems that players commonly run into when they are learning the system, mostly them thinking that something should be worth less than it is by a little or them imagining ways they can break the system.
These wear off pretty quickly when they actually start making army lists and see the costs in the context of armies (which is how we decide on costs, nothing is just costed in a vacume)
The people who think they can break the system generally end up just making a good army that is costed appropriately and on the rare occasion that they DO come up with something that shoiuld be more expensive than it is we fix it.

Balancing might seem like a mountain to climb but over the last year and a half we have climbed it

 

[Kreuger]

This seems like a fascinating system. Where on the one hand GW categorically refuse to balance things before release; you guys are focused on fixing them after the fact.

 

[paddlepop lion]

yea well they dont make it easy for us i wont lie lol.

This new Decurion style detachment thing they are bringing out is bit of a problem for our detachment restrictions but we are getting around it.

If the rumors for the new eldar jetbikes are true its going to be a tough nut to crack

 

[mrknify]

@paddlepop lion Do you have a link for further reading?


(Edit)Lol missed it in first post

 

[mrknify]

yea well they dont make it easy for us i wont lie lol.

This new Decurion style detachment thing they are bringing out is bit of a problem for our detachment restrictions but we are getting around it.

If the rumors for the new eldar jetbikes are true its going to be a tough nut to crack

How do you determine the costs of units? Or do you just agree on a number?

Before I go any further....

I like the idea, but disagree on the method of balancing. After going over, I can see reasons for some costs but other costs seem a bit high.

Your balancing also kills a lot of fluff aspects, making this game just a game. Might as well stick to chess.

I find the best way to balance games is with point limitations. I enjoy playing 500 point games, sure you can make some cheese lists. But with a bit of "realism" its not too had to add a few restrictions or build a story to play out.

But then again what do I know, I did quit playing competitive after 4th ed. Why? Dark eldar. But that's neither here nor their.

Its your game, enjoy it your way and I will enjoy my fluff style of Play.


Cheers.

 

[paddlepop lion]

essentially we look at the unit and the kinds of armies its likley to appear in and the way they contribute to the power level of those armies.
Then we make a targeted cost designed to hit spesisfically the thing that needs the cost but to leave other things alone.

This is why some things seem high, they are costed in context not in vacuum.


Really it doesnt get in the way of fluff at all its purely concerned with the power level of the game aspect, you as a player make lists according to your fluff boner.
The system HELPS fluff players because it softens the general power level of the tournament scene which allows players who make non optimal choices for fluff reasons arent having to face armies that are as strong.
The only time it will suck to be a fluff player is when your fluff would dictate that you bring are really really strong army and even then if you dont care about winning the event you can still do it.

The things you have raised are valid concerns that is always raised when people are introduced to the system but when you start making lists and seeing events use it then you realise they arent a problem

 

[mrknify]

essentially we look at the unit and the kinds of armies its likley to appear in and the way they contribute to the power level of those armies.
Then we make a targeted cost designed to hit spesisfically the thing that needs the cost but to leave other things alone.

This is why some things seem high, they are costed in context not in vacuum.


Really it doesnt get in the way of fluff at all its purely concerned with the power level of the game aspect, you as a player make lists according to your fluff boner.
The system HELPS fluff players because it softens the general power level of the tournament scene which allows players who make non optimal choices for fluff reasons arent having to face armies that are as strong.
The only time it will suck to be a fluff player is when your fluff would dictate that you bring are really really strong army and even then if you dont care about winning the event you can still do it.

The things you have raised are valid concerns that is always raised when people are introduced to the system but when you start making lists and seeing events use it then you realise they arent a problem

Fair enough, I will continue to build my csm / daemon list via the comp rules.

I will post the list here when done, I do like a challenge.

Cheers

 

[neferhet]

mumble mumble...those two lists seems fair enough. how many comp-points are those?

Still, i can't see a reason to ban some units...D weapons?
I need to calculate my own list with this...

 

[neferhet]

So, using "The Dog Show Tournament" rules: 1850 pts
I spent 9 points on this list (so i'd begin tourney with 22,2 tourney points). Single CAD, CODEX: CSM

Huron

20 Chaos Marines
MoSLaanesh
Icon of excess
2 meltaguns
Powersword
meltabombs

35 Cultists
3 flamers

15 Cultists
10 Autoguns

3 x 1 Obliterators
MoNurgle

5 Nurgle Spawns

5 Nurgle Spawns

5 Nurgle Bikers
2 meltaguns
combimelta
meltabombs

5 Terminators
MoSlaanesh
Icon of Excess
Lightning claw champ.
4 combi plasma

I'm not fully convinced. Might want to playtest it whit some friends.

 

[paddlepop lion]

mine was 12 at the time and the pod army was 6.

My eldar has recently incurred an extra credit in asurmen so its now a 13.



We have basically decided after a very very large ammount of deliberation and several wide polls of the community and constant probing that there is a thick sentiment in the community that some super heavies are too much to deal with in comp game.
One of our fundimental principals that guide our decision making is:
"is it reasonable to expect that an average comp army can deal with this?"

an imperial knight most armies can either kill or dodge, 2 of them quite often they can kill one and dodge the other but 3 is getting pretty hard to deal with.
A stompa is more than twice as hard to kill as a knight but it also shoots 7 very dangerous weapons on the first turn a can kill a huge sectiion of a marine list on turn 1.

The obelisk from necrons is banned because the guns shoot 270 degrees so it can very easily lay down 20 HITS of s7 per turn and is tough enough that it will do that every turn for the whole game. its jsut too much to kill and too much to weather for most armies. the tesseract labrynth is even worse.

we have jsut released an imperial armor expansion pack with quite a few super heavies that are legal.

 

[mrknify]

mine was 12 at the time and the pod army was 6.

My eldar has recently incurred an extra credit in asurmen so its now a 13.



We have basically decided after a very very large ammount of deliberation and several wide polls of the community and constant probing that there is a thick sentiment in the community that some super heavies are too much to deal with in comp game.
One of our fundimental principals that guide our decision making is:
"is it reasonable to expect that an average comp army can deal with this?"

an imperial knight most armies can either kill or dodge, 2 of them quite often they can kill one and dodge the other but 3 is getting pretty hard to deal with.
A stompa is more than twice as hard to kill as a knight but it also shoots 7 very dangerous weapons on the first turn a can kill a huge sectiion of a marine list on turn 1.

The obelisk from necrons is banned because the guns shoot 270 degrees so it can very easily lay down 20 HITS of s7 per turn and is tough enough that it will do that every turn for the whole game. its jsut too much to kill and too much to weather for most armies. the tesseract labrynth is even worse.

we have jsut released an imperial armor expansion pack with quite a few super heavies that are legal.

And the stompa is on par with the imperial knight....

 

[paddlepop lion]

that is some peoples opinion but its not shared buy the wider community and not by the council.

At some point in the future (a time which is determained by how much help we get from the community) we will be releasing an apocalypse package where all these things will be legal.
But untill then models like the stompa we have determained are just too big for an average comp army to be expected to deal with.

 

[mrknify]

that is some peoples opinion but its not shared buy the wider community and not by the council.

At some point in the future (a time which is determained by how much help we get from the community) we will be releasing an apocalypse package where all these things will be legal.
But untill then models like the stompa we have determained are just too big for an average comp army to be expected to deal with.

That is understandable, I just feel if the stompa is banned the imperial knight and wraithknight should also be banned.

(Wraithknight after the new eldar dex drops)

But that's my 2¢ not the councils.

I will agree that we will disagree on how the comp rules are presented.

Cheers.

 

[paddlepop lion]

look your 2c matters and it is taken into consideration.
All of us have our own opinions on what should cost what. This opinion is based off our experiences with and against said unit with the full rainbow of different armies in different missions. There is no "Right" cost for something its ultimately jsut what we think will best suit our needs.

What we have done is create a system that lowers the general power level of the metagame so that less experiences, less capable or more Fluff centric players can meet thier opponent at a tornament, look across the table and think to themselves:
"Well this game might be a hard one, but i can deal with those units, those units are a bit scary but if i play well and get a little lucky i might be able to win."

We feel imperial knights are JUST on the line of being too much. Theres a good chance that they will be going up a little bit more but a stompa is over that line.

 

[neferhet]

we have jsut released an imperial armor expansion pack with quite a few super heavies that are legal.

link?

That is understandable, I just feel if the stompa is banned the imperial knight and wraithknight should also be banned.

100% agree.

i understand how a stompa shooting is scarier than a knight..but i can have an army of three knights...and be perfectly legal... anyway...

 

[paddlepop lion]

Oh that hasnt been made into a button on the website yet ill have to get on that

heres a link to the forums where its linked.

http://communitycomp.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=0&t=50


Its still in beta so we havent finalised everything yet but in a month or so we will have a finished copy to start using.

 

[neferhet]

thanks