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Discussion Starter #1
so as the title suggest im looking at a better way of spending points to make a good assaulting unit.
i dont personal like terminators i never have, i have always thought them to be over priced compared to other units of the same type.
so basically here is my theory and why....

Assault terminators
t4 2+ 3+ isnit too bad but i feel that only having 1wound is not really that great for the price.
their lack of mobility also i feel is a hindrance. So having to take a Larnraider to give them a boost is an expensive tax. in my opinion thats going to set you back over 500points.

A full command squad.
a full command squad on bikes with an apothacary and all th/ss is an expensive option, but th T5 and feel no pain plus their mobility is a major boost..the loos of 1 amour point could be a bad thing i suppose.
ike squad
so when you compare the 2..both set to do the same job..do you feel that the terminators are better or the bike squad..?

Now when i say better dont just look at the armour save have athink about everything..speed attacks.punching power.mobility.cost and then answer which you think is better?
or do you believe that both of them to be situational? if so how?

though this is untested i feel that the bikes might just pip the termis due to the T5 and their speed. plus having the FNP to be a huge bonus.becuase other than that they are basically the same..same attack etc.also people know to kill termies on sight...bike command squad could be a sleeper unit..something unexpected.

love to know your thoughts
 

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Its a theory you will have to test, and other than resorting to the calculator I would not know if the 2+ save give the terminators the edge. Whats the cost of a fully decked out bike command squad?

What happens when the bike squad gets hit by some AP3 ordinance? They are hurt just as easily as the terminators but only get a 3 up save, and you will loose a fair chunk of them. But the terminators will be cosy and warm in their terminator armour.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited by Moderator)
Its a theory you will have to test, and other than resorting to the calculator I would not know if the 2+ save give the terminators the edge. Whats the cost of a fully decked out bike command squad?
afully equipped bike squad comes in at 350

What happens when the bike squad gets hit by some AP3 ordinance? They are hurt just as easily as the terminators but only get a 3 up save, and you will loose a fair chunk of them. But the terminators will be cosy and warm in their terminator armour.
yes i agree..but im working on the fact that you should be able to hide the bike in line blocking cover..and it shouldn't be that hard with a 24" movement

Reds for the staff, heres some pink - darkreever
 

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Rattlehead
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Assault Terminators. When you absolutely gotta kill every motherfucker in the room, accept no substitutes. They're insanely durable, great damage output, and cheap for all the goodies they get. Biker Command Squads are insanely expensive for what they are/do.

If cost really bothers you, bring a Henchmen band of 5 Death Cult Assassins and 5 Crusaders, maybe throw in a Priest (because you are bringing Coteaz, aren't you?). Insane damage output, pretty respectable survivability, dirt cheap, scoring.

Also, @fatmantis, I think red text is reserved for mod statements only.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
opps sorry about the red..

as for the 2+ does it really make that big of a difference?
i know its good..and terminators can soak up a tone of shooting..but what about the speed factor? and the FNP and extra T?

the main reason i ask is there is so much AP2 weaponry now that the Termies will be taking the 3+ most of the time anyway..so wouldn't you rather have am extra T and FNP?

as for speed terminators Usually dont assault till turn 3 (if deep striking) where as the bikes can assualt turn 2..give them a grave gun causing 1 wound and that negates the loss of initiative factor.
 

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1. Never Deep Strike with Assault Terminators. Just don't.

2. You're ignoring the benefits that a Land Raider itself brings. 260pts for a Multimelta, Two Hurricane Bolters and a Twin Linked Assault cannon on a platform that's effectively immune to anything that isn't Gauss, Wraithcannon or Melta, while keeping your squad immune to all attack and allowing them to move 12" before assaulting. Not shoddy.

3. Depending on how you look at it, a 2+ save is twice as survivable than a 3+ because you're halving your chance to fail. So only 1-in-6 guys are failing saves instead of 1-in-3.

4. Which is better ultimately comes down to what you're fighting against and how you're planning to use them. Terminators are better against AP3 and anything with S7-10 while Bikes are better against anything S6 or less and AP2. Terminators suit a counterassault/deterrant role better, while bikes want to be used very aggressively.

5. My personal preference would depend on the points value of the game and what else I had in my army, but instead of a fully tooled out Command Squad, I'd simply add an Apothecary and Company Champion and then a HQ choice with Artificer Armour and Lightning Claw - 350pts if it's a Chapter Master (netting you a much tougher beatstick and an Orbital Bombardment that can be fired on the move) or 310pts for a Captain with the same equipment. The character tanks any hits that aren't AP2, and the Champion issues and receives challenges so the HQ can whale away at the enemy squad.
 

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Rattlehead
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the main reason i ask is there is so much AP2 weaponry now that the Termies will be taking the 3+ most of the time anyway..so wouldn't you rather have am extra T and FNP?
Most AP2 guns are at least Str7 if not higher, so they're almost always ignoring your Toughness and often ignoring Feel No Pain.

I vote Assault Terminators (although if you're running dudes in a Land Raider, definitely worth thinking about Honour Guard) as 2+ really is a lot more survivable - yeah, there's a lot of AP2, but there's more AP3 or Torrent fire. Of the major lists going around, Ion Accelerators and Suncannons are AP2, but Baleflamers, Blastmasters, High-Yield Missile Pods, Serpent Shields, Screamers (using their normal attacks), and, well, pretty much the rest of the Tau army are either AP3 or higher, making a 2+ twice as good as a 3+.

You can solve the problem a little with the following, kind of gimmicky loadout:

Chapter Master on Bike with Artificer Armour, The Shield Eternal and Power Fist
Command Squad on Bikes with 2 Storm Shields, 2 Lightning Claws and 2 Meltaguns (some dudes to tank, some dudes to swing, some dudes to give duality).

Still expensive, but tougher and more threatening. The Command Squad loadout is definitely the one I'd take on a Biker Command Squad, although the Chapter Master could be dropped down to a Captain and swap the Fist for a Claw if points are tight. Still not as good as Honour Guard or Terminators in a Land Raider overall, in my opinion, but it has it's own merits.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
1. Never Deep Strike with Assault Terminators. Just don't.
Why do you say this?
2. You're ignoring the benefits that a Land Raider itself brings. 260pts for a Multimelta, Two Hurricane Bolters and a Twin Linked Assault cannon on a platform that's effectively immune to anything that isn't Gauss, Wraithcannon or Melta, while keeping your squad immune to all attack and allowing them to move 12" before assaulting. Not shoddy.
oh i completely agree! but i was more looking at the individual units..but it seems as i said the raider is a "tax" you have to pay to make termies better
3. Depending on how you look at it, a 2+ save is twice as survivable than a 3+ because you're halving your chance to fail. So only 1-in-6 guys are failing saves instead of 1-in-3.
true...but again im looking beyond the armour save to see if thats all tha matters
4. Which is better ultimately comes down to what you're fighting against and how you're planning to use them. Terminators are better against AP3 and anything with S7-10 while Bikes are better against anything S6 or less and AP2. Terminators suit a counterassault/deterrant role better, while bikes want to be used very aggressively.but the bikes with all TH/SS cant they do they same?

5. My personal preference would depend on the points value of the game and what else I had in my army, but instead of a fully tooled out Command Squad, I'd simply add an Apothecary and Company Champion and then a HQ choice with Artificer Armour and Lightning Claw - 350pts if it's a Chapter Master (netting you a much tougher beatstick and an Orbital Bombardment that can be fired on the move) or 310pts for a Captain with the same equipment. The character tanks any hits that aren't AP2, and the Champion issues and receives challenges so the HQ can whale away at the enemy squad.
i agree with the load out but i was more looking for an assualting TEQ equivalent with the same punching power(yes i know the 2+ point)
 

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Why do you say this?
Because 90% of the time you won't have a way to reduce the Scatter so you're going the full 2D6 with no way to avoid mishaps or terrain. You're blobbed up nicely for templates even if you run (1-2" will still let templates hit pretty much the entire squad) and any nearby unit can move 6" (or more if able) plus run D6" in order to put more distance between you and them (or stand still and rapid fire your ass off). If you survive - unlikely - then there's a realistic minimum of 10-12" distance between you and a target unit, and probably terrain in the way as well, making you do checks either when moving or assaulting or both.

Whatever happens, you're either going to crush a meaningless unit that is isolated and unsupported (never going to happen against a good player) or you'll get torrented down and die the turn after you arrive.

but it seems as i said the raider is a "tax" you have to pay to make termies better
I don't view it as a tax, I view it as a useful unit in it's own right and a nice way to get more armour into your list if you're capped out on HS already. It also adds a nice amount of torrent shooting which is useful against any army, but I suppose that I'd never take Hammernators without one, so in that way it can be viewed as a tax.

but the bikes with all TH/SS cant they do they same?
They can, but they're costing 67pts per model to do it instead of 45pts, and they still only have a 3+, regardless of what hits them. The problem is that if you use them defensively, then the points you paid for the bikes are pretty much wasted, and if you wait for the enemy to come to you then you can easily not be in combat til turn 3 - contributing nothing on turns 1-2 apart from to act as a deterrent. At least hammernators in a Crusader will be contributing the guns of the tank.
 

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I agree with Midnight, if you're looking for a non-terminator assault unit then i'd go with the honour guard.

I like bikes, but lack of AP2 on an expensive unit accompanying your warlord will make them a popular target that isn't too difficult to wipe off the table.
 

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I would have to say I run a command squad on bikes. I take the apothecary, all storm shields a thunder hammer and converting p.swords to l. claws. I have had success running my squad like this. I also run my bikes with Kor'Sarro Kahn and white scars chapter tactics. Twin-linked bolter fire plus either multi melta or heavy bolter fire from the squad. then charge you have Hammer of Wrath attacks, then you get into the actual combat. I would say you have a good chance to whittle down a few terminators before you assault. Now if you had power axes go at same init as the termies you have ap 2 weapons.. command squads can be built with more advantages then termies.
 

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Now if you had power axes go at same init as the termies you have ap 2 weapons.. command squads can be built with more advantages then termies.
It's not lack of AP2 weapons, it's lack of AP2 saves that is the issue. Points for points the termies are more survivable. Trying to make the bikes as good as the terminators just ramps up their cost and they still fall short of the mark.
 
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