Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,252 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Well I know that the codex is basically the rules and regulations of the adeptus astartes and is revered as a holy artifact by some chapters but what I'd like to know is do they rewrite parts of it to update it when a new threat comes along? Like it has tactics and other material in it to help facing eldar and Orks and Chaos but what about the things that weren't around when it was written like tau and the like??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,628 Posts
Really, the Codex Astartes by various Space Marine Chapters -- the Ultramarines as the more common example -- believe that this tome is perfection, the incarnation of ultimate strategic genius, and so it is still rational to believe that it is held in such high esteem that they believe it cannot be possibly bettered, and any alteration will only cause negativity. However, many Astartes, even those within Chapters that zealously adhere, only regard the work of Roboute Guilliman as guidline, the basis upon which tactics may be based and changed to suit the need of the threat, or other unorthodox factors of a situation.

Also, this is the greatest and most wide-spanning legacy of Robute Guilliman, arguably most loyal of the Emperor`s Sons. Who would possibly dissect, detract and add to the epitomy of his infamous tactical cunning?

If changes were to be made, who would they be penned by? Marneus Calgar? He is but an Astartes, albeit Chapter Master; not a Primarch, least of all the tactical genius of Guilliman.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,252 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
that's the main reason I'm asking. if it is guidelines when A new thing comes along you need guidleines for it and if they have to be written who does it? unlikely I know but still. Like to ask questions all the same :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,559 Posts
I am imagining a Space Marine forum where they debate the meaning of various lines in the Codex Astartes, and challenge each other to duels about the correct way to resolve a conflict between a regulation that applies to all Marines and a regulation on the use of Bikes.

They log on during their mandatory 15 minutes of personal time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,934 Posts
No- the Codex is what it is, the sum of the military minds from the Great Crusade and Scouring (it even includes treatises from the Traitor Primarchs, such as Perturabo's views on siege craft). Despite what many people think Guilliman may have compiled it and added his own view points on military strategy and organisation but he was wise enough to realise his own beliefs weren't the sum of effective combat.

Chapters can adhere strictly to the Codex (like the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists) using the knowledge contained within to combat new threats, the Codex undoubtedly contains the wisdom to defeat foes that attacked in a similar manner to the Tau and Tyranids for example.

Or Chapters might formulate their own tactics but consider the Codex a valuable guide, in those circumstances they aren't altering the Codex but using their own experience as well as it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
745 Posts
how sweet, ive just find the perfect thread for my rant. :)

funnily enough ive just read 'the consequences' by graham mcneil and it has just caused a mass escalation of hatred for guilleman that never really past through my mind until now.
obviously for longer fans of 40k there has been this hatred of all thing ultramarines because they always seem to be the poster boy of 40k but it never really bothered me as the paint scheme for them actually made me like them and reading the ventris novels created a view that they arent all starce arsed goody goody's.

but the bit that swung me was the interrogation of ventris about having to deviate from the codex to win a war with the tyranid, a enemy that guilleman had never seen or fought. now if the codex is so great then why isnt there a passage to suggest if a new threat is encounted and cant be defeated by using standard codex doctrine then using your own methods to win the day is quite acceptable.

it makes sense when mankind hadnt explored all of the galaxy and seeing as humans know of other galaxies like 30000 years before the codex is made then surely any competant person would understand a possible visit by extra galactic beings and they could be anything and do anything plus with widespread excounters with daemons who can do alot of unbelieveable stuff too then being able to adapt to anything anyway possible would be a good idea to put in the codex.

on a similar note, can anyone tell me how the hell guilleman was able to take control of all imperial forces after the heresy. before the heresy he wasnt considered the be the leader and when it broke out dorn was given the role of leader of all imperial forces and seeing as he wasnt killed in the heresy then that should still be in effect.
now before anyone says dorn went crazy and wasnt in the right mind, the emperor perosnally said dorn was in charge and seeing as the emperors word is gospel then how the hell can guilleman take it up on himself the change that but when people dont wanna follow what he says its heresy and cant be disagreed with.

plus if i ever see fulgrim ima bitch slap his ass back the the warp for stabbing guilleman with that sword as now guilleman is out of it who else can sort out any rectifications of the codex that will be needed for the 41st millenium.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,934 Posts
Dorn was leader of the loyalist forces for about 7 years, then during the Scouring he went a bit crazy (to say the least) and deserted the Imperium, for all intents and purposes, on his mad quest for vengeance that lasted about a century- that's how long the Scouring took.

Whilst his brother Guilliman, renowned as one of the greatest generals and organisers of the Primarch, stayed to defend humanity in it's hour of need- I bet more people supported Guilliman's Codex than disagreed with him by a large percentage. Hmm who to support?
The man who was nominally in charge and who abandoned his duty OR the man who stood between us and extinction for a century...what a choice.

Who's to say that if Guilliman hadn't been with the Emperor during the Heresy he wouldn't have been placed in charge of the Imperium's armed forces during the Heresy, he was far more suited to the role than Dorn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,094 Posts
But the Codex must update. Guilliman, whatever people think of him, was no fool. The treatises written by his traitor brothers on their specialist topics were never to be bettered, so he left them in, showing that he is, primarily, about practical knowledge. He distlilled all Astartes warfare into a seminal book, much like the Tactica Imperialis. And it's not just a 'do this and win'-type thing, but also there is a lot of Sun-Tzu type stuff.

What would Guilliman do if he had lived through the time between the HH and 40k? Without doubt he would have added to the Codex, reflecting the changes in enemies and the evolving role of the Astartes. So, what I think, is that the Codex now varies between Chapters. By this I mean that Chapters that worship the book, like the UMs, might never change it from the original version, hamstringing themselves with their reverance. Other Chapters are probably more pragmatic about it, adding in new essays and tactics as they are needed and appropriate.

I think this reverence for the Codex is a wrinkle of depth that people miss when it comes to the UMs. They are disliked because they follow this book and think they are better because of it. But isn't there an element of tradgedy about this? If they don't update the Codex, then, slowly but surely, it becomes more and more outdated as will they. They will be forced to try to gain tactical advice from discussions of past situations that have nothing in common with what is actually in front of them. How do they grow from this? Do they ignore it and become more and more irrelevant, inflexible and hidebound as time goes on, or do they, as a Chapter, abandon their beliefs in the infallibility of Guilliman's master-work? What would that do to them, removing a central pillar of their psyche? Would there be a schism, a civil war between those who think they have to change and those who think they just need to get better at reading between the lines? And what would happen to their Successor Chapters? Would there be a split in them, reflecting the issues within the UMs themselves?

There is a lot of depth with the Ultras, if we just think about them the same way we do about all of the other Chapters. Here is a group of heroes, just like all other Chapters, but one that is racing towards a crisis of faith in its own identity. They are only 1D if we think of them like that.

GFP
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,934 Posts
I only just remembered- the Ultramarines have updated the Codex (or at the version they adhere to) in the form of a dedicated core of Tyranid Hunters, there was a huge debate between all the brethren of the Chapter that could return to Macragge in time to take part with the debate going in favour of the addition due to the fervent arguments of Chaplain Cassius and a Veteran Sergeant from the Scythes of the Emperor.

So it has happened.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,864 Posts
Yeah they must update or change it since Calgar himself stated after early losses against the tyranids of behemoth that the Ultramarines were "guilty of the sin of pride" and that the codex was not effective since "the blessed primarch did not know of their existence when he penned his tome". So as new threats emerge then the person with the most experiance against the threat might add a new chapter with tactics most effective against the said threat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
745 Posts
I only just remembered- the Ultramarines have updated the Codex (or at the version they adhere to) in the form of a dedicated core of Tyranid Hunters, there was a huge debate between all the brethren of the Chapter that could return to Macragge in time to take part with the debate going in favour of the addition due to the fervent arguments of Chaplain Cassius and a Veteran Sergeant from the Scythes of the Emperor.

So it has happened.
did this follow the ventris novels when he got back to macragge after his death oath saga? havent read the ones when he returns to fight the tau and the ventris vs. honsou one so might be missing something here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
745 Posts
so i happened before yet they punish ventris for doing what was needed. stinks of double standards. either stay true to codex astartes or change tactics and purge the xeno's from the emperors galaxy?! ermm...... i know what Him on earth would want!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,934 Posts
It happened before but the entire chapter was involved in the debate over the changes advocated and it was only implemented with a small majority in favour after months of arguing. Ventris disobeyed the Codex, pure and simple.

A suitable analogy would be the Law.
Just because a new, hotly contested, law is added to those that already exist does not mean that if you break the law you don't deserve to be punished for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
745 Posts
depends on what laws are being broken and why.

i pay money into a account of my missus's and the bank said its illegal for me to have the card and use it. so im breaking the law. i dont think that is worth punishing me for.

same with what ventris did, broke the codex to win the fight which is worthwhile in my book. but saying all this, you get the impression calgar agreed with ventris but has to punish him to placate the staunch followers of the codex. sort of the kind of thing we see everyday in RL. common sense just sometimes doesnt prevail.
 

·
Craw-Daddy
Joined
·
4,416 Posts
I wonder if Tiguirus or whatever his name his had a vision of Ventris and his success in saving Macrage and told Calagar of it. Calagar being very trustful of Tiguirus could have ordered Ventris into banishment due to those visions. But thats my logical explanation for why Ventris was banished for that time.

As for the codex making the ultramarines so awesome... (here comes in the sarcasm) the ultramarines are just so fucking awesome, they kill everything so easily. Read Chapters Due. They kill experienced chaos marines as if they were simple human beings with pitch forks. The simple matter of the fact is, that you can't touch the ultramarines. I don't know why, but its like they take their cup of steroids in the morning or maybe they're just so fucking awesome. No use on wondering why these ultramarines are GWs poster boys. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
can anyone tell me how the hell guilleman was able to take control of all imperial forces after the heresy. before the heresy he wasnt considered the be the leader and when it broke out dorn was given the role of leader of all imperial forces and seeing as he wasnt killed in the heresy then that should still be in effect.
well, i personally believed that he strong-armed Dorn into giving up the position so that he can continue his asskickery of the Traitor Legions.

it probably also helps that his legion at the time dwarfed every1 else (SM wise) combined if im correct

It would have to be a tactical genius to add anything. A serious tactical genius.
CREEEEED!
NO one listens to Creed, from as far as ive seen in game "do this" "nnnnaaaahhh"
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top