Cheeseheads.

And no doubt he hasn't had a game since.

Heard about a game that a freind played where the other played very nearly refused to allow him to use his army because it was 'counts as'. My mate had done up a hard core Radical =I= force and was using some very nice conversion peices based around Possessed SM's to represent GK's. They were armed with deamon axes and had fire sculpted onto the fists to represent the wargear. This guy had put hours into the army both the back story and the actual painting time.

And the other player refused becuase they didn't look like GK's. He is army was the most bland thing you had ever seen. Not a single conversion peice amounst them. All his SM's looked straight out of the box.

Eventually he relented when the Staff Member basically told him he was being a prat and that there was nothing wrong with the mini's. That and everybody was giving him the impression that if he didn't change his mind he wouldn't ever have a game again.

My mate's actually sold the army now and he hasn't seen the prick in a good six months thank god.

The Wraithlord said:

We had a tournament here at the local GW with 300 bucks worth of stuff up for grabs. 1000pts, 4x4 tables. Dude brought a Black Legion list with, count 'em, 17 heavy weapons. 17 hweapons in 1000pts. Considering that the tables had next to no terrain on them, no one stood a chance. Hell, a friend of mine plays nids and never once got across the table and into cc. Pure, unadulterated cheese imho.

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I hate to defend these people, but I just like to consider their justifications, because they're not entirely unreasonable. If there's 300 bucks' worth of product up for grabs, that's a good chunk of a 2000-point army. Our hobby is expensive-- and a penny saved is a Space Marine earned in a lot of minds, my own included. The unfortunate truth of tournaments is that they're not necessarily fun in the way that a pickup game or one that you have with your friends is meant to be-- it's a competition, and while the games have the potential to be fun, it's not ultimately why anyone's there. Just for my own reference so I had an idea of what you were talking about, I made up an army list with the current Chaos Space Marine codex that has 18 heavy weapons (and a kai gun, if you care to factor that in, since it has a pretty similar effect) for 1000 points, and I can certainly see how unstoppable that probably would be in open terrain. I don't applaud the guy for playing that kind of army-- it ruins the game for everyone else-- but I think it's good to understand his motivations.

I must admit, if i was entering a tournament, and especially if there was a prize, then i would probably do the same, or at least i would take an army designed to give me the best chance at winning. I find that many "local" tournaments get the reaction of "that guy only because he had the cheesiest army". In fact Jez and I entered a Tournament at one of the local GW's and it created quite a stir as people felt we had cheesey lists. I was talking to the store manager who said he thought it was great as his vets were so set in there ways.
Similarly Cheese/beard is a matter of perspective, If your playing against orks and you take the traits that give you 6 dev squads and give them all 4 heavy bolters then that may be a little harsh. Use that same list against a mechanised marine list and its not really going to do very well.

I think if someone makes a list to play against anyone, then thats cool regardless of whats in it to a certain extent, as there is going to be a list out there that can beat it. If someone makes a list Just to face a specific army and then won't play others with it then thats pretty beardy

I do the same Wraithlord...

In the last tourney I ran, I brought the same list I have been using for over 3 years against all comers just in the case it was needed. This is a mixed IG army that uses many infantry, a few tanks, and no lascannons or bassies. It turned out, that I would indeed have to play a ringer army. The cries of cheese I had to endure were just outrageous. The ringer army tied for 1st place in the tourney. I tried to explain to people where the army's weaknesses were, but so many armies present were unable to cope because they had specialized thier lists to the point where there was virtually no tactical flexibility on their end. That tourney had 3 games, and 2 of those games resulted in the opponent picking up every one of their own models before turn 5. The last was a minor loss because I had simply stopped playing on turn 3.

During a tourney, you play to win. Generally speaking, a balanced army has a much better chance to win than an overly specialized list. If your opponents have a gripe, go ahead and let them know all the mistakes that they made and which contributed to their downfall. They may not like it, but you'ld be doing them a favor.

I'm running another tourney in October, and people are already complaining about the possible ringer army. My response: FEAR THE RINGER!

Heh. Nice.

Funny how locally, we call the ringer the guy who fills the odd number slot for the tournaments so no one sits out a round...

I've been meaning to post about this, and now seems a good time. I don't believe in cheese. I believe in fluff, and I wouldn't call it cheesy to have an army that blatantly violates the fluff... I'd just consider it stupid and pointless from the perspective of the storyline. Cheese is, ultimately, what you're afraid of, or think you can't beat. The simple truth of the matter is that while there are a lot of "killer combos" out there that are considered cheesy, the challenge lies in beating them. And if you do beat them, then the people who think they need to rely on that sort of thing instead of sound tactics may eventually realize that this isn't a card game like Magic-- you can't just build the army to win, you have to lead it well when it's on the table. If someone can't do that and has to resort to the lamer things available to their army, then that's their own flaw-- and there are ways to exploit that flaw in the game. For example, someone who runs nothing but pure "cheese" may think they need to in order to win-- which would imply they're not confident in their own abilities. You can predict what they'll do because of that, and act accordingly. Daemon bomb? No problem. Set up to recieve chargers by keeping units in a firing line but with 3.5'' gaps between them, and cover the obvious lines of advance for the bikers with your heavy guns. Drop pods? Split your army up and make them split up theirs. Take each flank, put a sacrificial unit in the center, and let the drop pod units seperate themselves. You'll likely outrange them unless you're a choppy army yourself, in which case it doesn't matter much. What you can't shoot down, you fight with weight of numbers, since there are at most ten Space Marines in a drop pod, and it's surprising how isolated they can get deep-striking. Assault cannons out the wazoo? You have cover, use it to your advantage, and position units to funnel those land speeders into line of fire of multi-shot, moderate strength weapons. If they're terminators, they're SLOW... simply outmaneuver them.

Cadian81st said:

My friend has a suicide drop troop army, and I've always been of the opinion that that is unfluffy. I mean, sure the IG is cold and heartless, but they're not going to invest god knows how much money into training elite soldiers, arming them with the best weapons in the universe, and then sending them on a suicide mission from which no one is expected to return alive. It just doesn't make sense to me.

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well, I see that as the Imperial guard having faith in their selves, equipment, and brethren. when we are playing the game, we see the final epic moments of the battle, we aren't playing the 5 months spent in trenches lobbing grenades and hoping for a kill, where there are hardly any casualties (so to speak) and everyone is too afraid to move, we are playing the gamble, we play the epic moments when backup does arrive, or the commander received authorization to push forward. so I don't see that as unfluffy at all. How often are SWAT teams deployed via helicopter onto the roof of a building, or like in rainbow six vegas, dropped into the middle of a terrorist calamity. Dropping elites is the best way to use them, of course in real life the drops are more surgical, but a drop is a drop. Real SWAT teams (which I would consider super elite) always infiltrate or drop in. always.