[Jace of Ultramar]

This coming 3 day weekend I've been invited to a game at s friend's place with his usual gaming group. These guys were the most excited to hear about Unbound Armies that I can think of and they really cheese it up something fierce. As an example, I know the Eldar player is bringing the following:

2 Avatars
2 Farseers on Jetbike
10 Warp Spiders
3 Wraith Lords
2 Wraith Knights

And I'm sure the Tau player will have a crap ton of Riptides and Broadsides. Typically, I do not design my army lists with the extreme end of winning in mind. I usually write my lists for fun and try to keep it fairly balanced or themed, but, I won't be able to survive the first couple of turns against something like Typhus, 150 Zombies, and 3 Helldrakes with my usual list writing. I'm the only Marine player that will show up and I know that the others will be Eldar, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, Chaos/Daemons, and Tau/Eldar. With that in mind, I'm not sure which direction to take things in. My preliminary list looks like the following.

Sicarius
Tigurius
Cypher
Combat squad with Lasback
Scouts w/Telion
Stormtalon w/TLLC
Predator w/TLLC, LC sponsons, Chronus
2 KnightTitans
ADL w/Quadgun

And that's about it. I'm a little on the stumped side with this and wouldn't mind some input as to the direction I should take.

 

[ntaw]

Whenever I play Unbound I take specifically the units that my buddy's have all bitched about being 'OP' or just generally too damned effective. To me, seeing two Knight Titans on the other side of the table would have me concerned something fierce and I love melting some armour.

 

[Mossy Toes]

2 Avatars
2 Farseers on Jetbike
10 Warp Spiders
3 Wraith Lords
2 Wraith Knights

Well, if he's not bringing Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents, your Knights are pretty much in the clear. I guess the Warp Spiders could put on a few glances, or Wraithknights striking before you, but...

Thunderfire Cannons are your friend for clearing our Zombies, I think. Slow and Purposeful might even be more crippled by the burrowing rounds that trap them in difficult terrain!

Tigurius with Scrier's Gaze + Stormtalon should be able to put some hurt on Heldrakes--making sure to come in after the Heldrakes come on, zipping around to deal damage in rear arc AV10 if possible...

 

[vonklaude]

Sicarius
Tigurius
Cypher
Combat squad with Lasback
Scouts w/Telion
Stormtalon w/TLLC
Predator w/TLLC, LC sponsons, Chronus
2 KnightTitans
ADL w/Quadgun

And that's about it. I'm a little on the stumped side with this and wouldn't mind some input as to the direction I should take.

If you want cheese, surely allies?

I like IG, but cheesier can be found. For example, for 1474 of your 2000 points you can take -

1x HQ: Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour + Combi-Plasmagun
1x HQ: Company Command Squad x4 + Plasma gun x4 + 1x Chimera [Guard]
3x Elite: Dreadnoughts Twin-Linked Autocannon + Twin-Linked Autocannon
2x Troops: Tactical Squads x 9 + Sgt x1 + Combi-Meltagun x1 + Rhinos
1x Troops: Veteran Squad x9 Veteran Squad + Meltagun x3 + Sgt x1 + 1x Chimera
3x Fast Attack: Vendetta Gunship Squadron

Leaving 526 points for other things. I'd field LasPlasbacks over Lasbacks, for example. Now that you can buy the turrets from FW.

 

[neferhet]

that list of yours is no cheese!
i'd go, if unbound:
2 knights
5 razolaser
5 tac squads with lascannon
aegis+quadgun (even razorbacks can get that nice 4+ cover save)
3 drop pds with dreadnought + heavy flamer
the rest of the points at your discretion i suggest an assassin

cheers

 

[ntaw]

I condone neferhet's suggestion, right up to using an Assassin. I've been having a blast with my Vindicare and Callidus models.

 

[vonklaude]

that list of yours is no cheese!
i'd go, if unbound:
2 knights
5 razolaser
5 tac squads with lascannon
aegis+quadgun (even razorbacks can get that nice 4+ cover save)
3 drop pds with dreadnought + heavy flamer
the rest of the points at your discretion i suggest an assassin

cheers

I agree with Aegis and quadgun. But I don't follow how drop pods and razolasers are cheese? LasPlas Razors seem cheesier to me. And drop pods with cc dreads? Riflemen seem cheesier. Tac squads would be cheesier with MM I would think. In the OP's list the Knights felt like the only cheesy element. neferhet's list certainly cheeses that up hugely.

 

[neferhet]

well, razorlasers are cheesy due to twinlinked lascannons. lasplas are cheesy only if you reach 24", otherwise are just worse.
droppods are cheesy due to turn 1 "alpha strike" with multi melta or hflamer to cripple any horde or heavy armoured target. then, 2 dreddy in the backfield, turn1, will force any opponent to delay a unit or two in stopping them, whereas 2 rifledreads would onluy provide str7 shots (unneeded due to 12 lascannons) and just force the opponent to rush at you even faster. the lascannon spam + 3 dreddy dropping backfield will force opponent to delay his advance or advance splittet, which is sweet. Also, drop pods..well, they score. so enemy have to remove them as well if you plant them 3" from an bjective, while the pods can concentrate their 3 storm bolters on squishy backfielders, maybe forcing a morale test (think about our usual token cultist squad or the other usual minimal fire warriors cadre). cheese, for me, is not only about uber units, its also about proper planning :wink:

 

[MidnightSun]

What a great 5th ed list!

I would hesitate to call Razorbacks of any variety 'cheesy'. Tau, Eldar and Tyranids will rip it apart with ease if they're truly 'cheesy' lists (presumably with more teeth than the Eldar one you posted or the Chaos zombie example, which I would be hesitant to call 'cheesy'). Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods are... kind of shitty. 2 fragile vehicles with no other deep-striking threats? Yeah, the Knights are fast, but the Dreadnoughts will drop down, kill a thing with shooting, then die horribly. Very expensive way of doing it.

I'd go with a closer-range fighting style, to support those Knights. Knights, even two of them, are kind of easy to bring down if they're the only thing that's pressuring your opponent. I'd want a lot of Drop Pod threats (that means using Combat Squads!), or a bunch of special weapons in the Rhinos if you're wanting to run a more mechanised force. The *best* would be Bikes, I think, since they're very good at working with Knights, but I take it you don't have the models or inclination to build a biker list.

 

[Vaz]

Eh. You mean what a great 5th edition game 4th edition SM-Dex list...

AV11 is wetpaper bag thin. You're going up against Wraith Knights and Broadsides. 5 TL Lascannon shots will do zilch, and that's what... 300pts down the drain?

Knights aren't so much the threat when the enemy can bring as many tank busting points - they're the one major threat you have, and unless you can bring like 7 to the party, you're SoL. There was a battle report of an army that had 3 knights facing against a load of Orks. Orks have about the weakest ranged AT in the game, and despite that, the shit ton of rockets just brought them down.

Cheese is pretty much something marines cannot do, because they're so anti-polarised in their approach. Meanwhile, Eldar are so focused on doing one job that it's easy to stack bonus on bonus on bonus to one particular aspect, and force you to come to them.

 

[neferhet]

guys, if we compare every list to eldar overpowered builds, then we might just say to the OP, "hey man, why don't you play eldar?" Not even the dreaded biker list of doom stand a chance against a fully kitted serpent spam + wraithknight list. SO what? 2 knights, 20 bikers with gravguns and 5 vindicare assassins? 2 knights and 8 full tactical squads combasquadded in drop pods? As said before SM aint cheesy. one do what he can, whit what he has...still, i haven't seen many more cheesy or competitive suggestion.

 

[MidnightSun]

guys, if we compare every list to eldar overpowered builds, then we might just say to the OP, "hey man, why don't you play eldar?" Not even the dreaded biker list of doom stand a chance against a fully kitted serpent spam + wraithknight list. SO what? 2 knights, 20 bikers with gravguns and 5 vindicare assassins? 2 knights and 8 full tactical squads combasquadded in drop pods? As said before SM aint cheesy. one do what he can, whit what he has...still, i haven't seen many more cheesy or competitive suggestion.

I really hate to tell you this, but Space Marines have done really well and sometimes outshone Eldar and Tau in some major tournaments in 7th ed.

Eldar ain't nearly unbeatable.

In terms of 'cheese', yeah, Eldar have one gimmick they do really well because Phil Kelly's shitty at internal balance. Space Marines have a bunch of solid options - they can make a decent competitive list out of Drop Pods, Bikers or Mech.

 

[neferhet]

some major tournaments in 7th ed.

well, like which ones? in tourney outcomes i've read about the usual 2-3 xeno list placing on the top 3. honestly in local and minor tourneys overseas it's the old same eldar list that wins. Which major tourneys? besides...space marines CAN be good and need a gaming approach completely different from space sissies because they are not cheesy as the latter. i know space marines can be good , but...eldar/tau good? don't think so.

 

[MidnightSun]

Space Marines won and also placed solidly throughout the Bay Area Open, beating Tau and Eldar in the top 5. I know that's an isolated example, I'd need to do some searching for more though.

Codex: Space Marines is a good book that can run multiple builds effectively. Okay, maybe each one isn't *quite* as effective as that one Eldar build or that one Tau build, but they're certainly close and can be diverse (and therefore surprising) into the bargain.

The Eldar list, for certain, isn't invincible. I've played against it with Orks and Dark Angels; it's boring and it dies to counters, like everything. I haven't played the Tau uber-list yet, however, so I cannot speak for it.

 

[neferhet]

oh i forgot abot BAO, you are right.
but i think we agree on you second sentence. fact is that a counter to such list is so hard tailored (i play chaos and DE, so i might have a problem with this) that usully gets trumped by any other half decent list... about tau, it's just like eldar, only even less funny and mobile...just a bot that plays for you, reverting the player to a dice rolling machine. oh, the fun...

 

[Jace of Ultramar]

Well, everyone, thanks for the recommendations I ended up running the following list. I present my "Fuck Off!" Space Marines list.

HQ 110
Master of the Forge w/C Beamer
Troops 540
Combat Squad w/Lascannon
Combat Squad w/Lascannon
Combat Squad w/Lascannon
Combat Squad w/Lascannon
Combat Squad w/Lascannon
Combat Squad w/Lascannon
Elite 480
Sternguard w/2 Lascannons
Sternguard w/2 Lascannons
Sternguard w/2 Lascannons
Fast 420
Stormtalon w/Twin Linked Lascannons
Stormtalon w/Twin Linked Lascannons
Stormtalon w/Twin Linked Lascannons
Heavy 450
Devastator Squad w/4 Lascannons
Devastator Squad w/4 Lascannons
Devastator Squad w/4 Lascannons

Needless to say, I won and asked to come back when I have a better list. I don't get it... they didn't win and didn't have fun? I did. I don't think they didn't like getting it up the ass.

 

[ntaw]

:shok: that is a fuck-ton of Lascannons.

 

[neferhet]

well that is exactly what i was aiming for with my list
stormtalons are truly a nice touch

 

[Jace of Ultramar]

:shok: that is a fuck-ton of Lascannons.

Yup, it sure is. There was barely a care given when I wrote this list.

well that is exactly what i was aiming for with my list
stormtalons are truly a nice touch

Well, it served its purpose very well. Flashlight death was awesome. The Chaos player had a jaw dropping moment when a Dev squad had one lucky snap shot to knock down the first Heldrake and three Stormtalons took the other two in a quick instance.

The Eldar player with the Wraith Lords & Knights had a moment of Derp when he thought that he was getting the objectives til it dawned in him that mine was a battleforged list and had objective secured in my favour. Not to mention I paint & play Crimson Fists so I had IF chapter tactics on my side and that made the Devs a bit more of a threat.

 

[ntaw]

Do you actually own that many Lascannon models? I would actually love to face this list. I'd likely lose, but it would be hella fun.