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Okay, still doesnt explain how these WBs outnumbered 10 to 1 destroyed the atmoshere of one Ultramar World, destroyed mutiple Ultra ships (not small craft either, major ships), and battle Ultramar itself. The WB then mostly survived and ran of to the Maelstrom. This is half of a single legion battling ALL of the Ultramarines. If the number of Ultras as most propose is, then the WBs are outnumbered 10 t0 1 and still came out intact. How is this possible unless the WBs are much better Ship fighters than the Ultras? I have not read the book but I like to know how this happen?
Let's not forget that the Ultramarines were so far from the fighting, they had very little idea it was occuring. It's hinted in "A Thousand Sons" that it's very tough to send a message via the warp and is very easy to be misinterpreted. Like an e-mail with several words or letters missing, I presume.
Plus Chaos had the whole galaxy in a huge warp storm so it was even less possible to understand. It's even possible that they had no idea the Heresy occuring.
Following that possibility, all the Ultramarines knew was that a huge ship turned up on their doorstep baring Lorgar's legions colours, that then proceeded to start firing. They would have no idea what was going on. Their fleet wouldn't be in any kind of defensive formation, and their warriors would be at rest with only a few actively patrolling.
If I recall correctly, the only Ultramarines who knew were on the Eisenstein.
 

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Its obvious that the Space Wolves generally do disregard the Codex Astartes, but from what the Baron quoted (the second largest company consisting of 200 Astartes) gives us some reference to base their overall numbers on.
I think the Space Wolves may have those 2 very large Great Companies with 200 Marines each, then Great Companies with about the Salamander's company-size (120 each), and some between these two ends (say 150 each). So all in all maybe 1,750 Marines, with a further 100 in the Great Wolves' Great Company.
 

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The Blood Angels could definitely do it, because it red fury the book they have already called all of the chapters that could make it (even if only represented by 5 people at the time) so if there was an emergency they could easily call up a legion sized army.
last time they did it was to restore their depleted forces so they don't collapse if chaos find out their current state of weakness, and they called a tithe from very founding chapter originally from the BA to spend time in the forces to help them until they return to full strength if i remember correctly.
 

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The Blood Angels could definitely do it, because it red fury the book they have already called all of the chapters that could make it (even if only represented by 5 people at the time) so if there was an emergency they could easily call up a legion sized army.
last time they did it was to restore their depleted forces so they don't collapse if chaos find out their current state of weakness, and they called a tithe from very founding chapter originally from the BA to spend time in the forces to help them until they return to full strength if i remember correctly.
Whilst the Blood Angels do eventually get a complement of recruits from each Chapters none of the Successor Chapters are particularly comfortable in each other's presence- they cooperate when they must but not a single moment more.
 

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As for the first founding chapters disobeying Super Smurf, shows that they still don't agree with the codex, but follow it out of necessity, for they also fear being ex-communicated, which would suggest that the inquisition and/or other chapters are silently threatening these chapters.
Not really.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could.
In addition Corax embraced the Codex.

Following the Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, became the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces and one of the first edicts is his holy tome, the Codex Astartes, was that the Space Marines Legions be split into smaller units known as Chapters. Amongst many of the Primarchs there was resistance, but Corax welcomed the decision, knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true. Thus the Raven Guard were to give rise to three other Chapters: the Black Guard, the Revilers and the Raptors.
 

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The argument for the UM's seems to be that there were a lot of them, so basically Guillman (in SM terms at least) slept around alot, like roman emperors of old. That makes them a whole lot more interesting than i thought they were. A possible target for slaneesh, or a load of angry and confused SMs brought up in a single parent household even :grin:

Black templars aside (emperor knows they seem to be getting plenty of credit in this thread) it would seem that the angels (blood and dark) would both manage a decent showing if the call ever came to form in great numbers. Both these chapters have individual traits running though them that could act as a unifying force.

The Dark angels would be pretty straightforward i'd imagine, just hint that one of the fallen is involved, whilst the blood angels and successors probably don't like fighting together due to the risk of 'the rage' sweeping through the entire fighting force, but given a reason to unify into a legion I imagine they'd be less concerned about that happening.
 

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Its really hard to gauge the numbers. The old books say one thing, the HH novels say another.

It sounds like the Thousand Sons we're around 10,000 total and the Raven Guard had 80,000 at the time of the drop site attack.

On point though probably the closest anyone could get quickly would be BT with around 5,000 or 6,000 space marines if they called in all the crusade groups at once.

Still tiny compared to legion numbers if any of them are accurate counts.
 

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Just with reference to what someone mentioned earlier. The Blood Angels are probably the Chapter that could raise a large force the fastest. They wouldn't be able to raise the Largest force over all but all the successor chapters are loyal to Sanguineous so if Astroth, who is basically head chaplain to all Blood Angel Chapters, put out a rallying call all the successors would answer. So you're looking at 6-7 Chapters with of Marines (not all the successors have been named and some have gone mad or exploded)

Aramoro
 

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Yes but all the Dark Angel successors are actually all part of the same organisation- the Unforgiven, Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master with the head of every other Chapter a Grand Master. Unlike the BA and it's successors they're linked by a common purpose and don't appear to intensely dislike each other like the Sons of Sanguinius do.
 

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Out of duty to their homeworld, not necessarily friendship.

After all, if you moved abroad, and someone invaded your homeland, you`d be pretty pissed, right? I know it`s not the same, but still, The home of their primarch is under siege! They owe their existence to that world, of course they`re gonna help.

btw, getting off topic.

I still think chapters work fine in theory. It`s just a shame about some of the guys in charge.
 

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Regardless of what the reasons may be it still stands in black and white that Dante brought together all of the Blood Angels successor chapters bar one.
If a legion as fractured as the Blood Angles can be brought back together then i would imagine that most founding legions could pull together a sizeable force fairly quickly.
The Ultra's would probably be able to pull together the biggest force just because they spawned the most Chapters. I think it's roughly half of all the SM Chapters in M41 owe their gene seed, at least in part, to the Ultamarines. Theres supposed to be around 1000 Chapters, so thats 500 chapters of roughly 1000 marines each. I don't think any of the legions came anywhere near that sort of size.
 

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I think it's roughly half of all the SM Chapters in M41 owe their gene seed, at least in part, to the Ultamarines. Theres supposed to be around 1000 Chapters, so thats 500 chapters of roughly 1000 marines each. I don't think any of the legions came anywhere near that sort of size.
Although we should take into account that inevitably some of those Chapters who owe their gene-seed to Guilliman are now so far removed from the Ultramarines that they may not feel any sense of loyalty or common purpose at all.
 

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And it's actually 60% of Chapters are of Guilliman's seed not 50% :wink:
Whats 10,000 super human killing machines with big guns between friends eh?

I'd even go as far as to say that it was Guilliman who pulled the fast one, there's no other Legion that could stand up to that.
 

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Although we should take into account that inevitably some of those Chapters who owe their gene-seed to Guilliman are now so far removed from the Ultramarines that they may not feel any sense of loyalty or common purpose at all.
Sorry for the double post, I completely missed this!

Again, I think it would depend on what the reason was. As far as I'm aware all successor chapetrs still venerate their Primarchs, unless of course they are the Blood Ravens. As long as they can still trace their lineage back to the Ultras then I would imagine a call of enough importance would be answered.
That just leaves the question of what would the call need to be?
If it was an open call for support in taking control of the Imperium then I would imagine their would be a sizeable amount of resistance. If it was a call for aid to defend against some massive force I would think that the call would be answered and the mother of all Legions would be raised in a very short time.
 

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i think i would be more worried about the Black Templars they seem more secretive the the Lions sons in my humble opinion and as a side thought whilst no one questions thier loyalty to the Emperor and Dorns legacy a legion strength band of zelous fanatics really worries me....um wasn't that what got Lorgar and his sons into trouble in the first place i bet he is laughing his demon ass off now
 
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