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Bane of Empires
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Concerning the "Crusade Doctrine" I think that this would be very beneficial to the Astartes and the Imperium. If I could arrange it lol, I would have each crusade comprimised with 1000 marines each with its own Commander or Chapter Master. The entirity of its leadership would be made up of a council with chapter masters. One would be voted as "chief chapter master" and therefore have a reign for a certain time. That way a legion under a crusade doctrine could never be ruled over by one individual and in that sense not create a tremendous rebellion or turn to renegade or chaos. Thats the best way I think Guilleman would be happy without using the dumb chapter rule.
Thats hardly a perfect failsafe. And also several chapters coordinating efforts has happened many times before, which is essentially what you just preposed.

And whats your reasoning behind your opinion that it was a mistake to dissolve the Legions in favour of Chapters?
 

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random perculation of thought- the Ultramarines really sacrificed themselves during the Heresy and especially during the Scourging in their efforts to hold the Imperium together- 9/10ths of the Legion perished. Don't believe me? The Ultramarines Legion have been stated as having 250,000 Astartes at their height, but during their 2nd founding they supposedly founded 23 primogenitor chapters, that's a drop in numbers of over 225,000 marines...and yet by the end of the Scourging the Ultramarines accounted for half of all the Astartes.
Heresy+Scourging= Astartes genocide
I think this raises an interesting point about the rebuilding of the Imperiums armed forces. I've read somewhere that in the Codex RG split the Imperial Army into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Fleet along with splitting the legions. I wonder at what point during the scourging this was done as the last thing a weak Imperium needed was to have to totally reorganise their fighting forces at the height of the scourging and RG would have realised this.

Also, Pre heresy the Legions (assuming the larger 100000 k estimates are correct numbered roughly 1880000 Space Marines:

Based on 15 * 100000 = 1500000 (estimate)
Ultras = 250000
Raven Guard = 80000
Salamanders = 50000 (complete guess but they were the smallest Legion)
I've not included the missions legions obviously

Now these 1880000 were produced in the roughly 250 years of the Great Crusade.

After the HH and the Scourging we've seen that the total remaining Space Marines totalled the 21 2nd founding chapters as per http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Second_Founding plus the 26 of the Ultras giving a total of 47000 Space Marines.

I wonder why now there are only roughly 1 million Space Marines? Has it taken the Imperium 10000 years to create less than the Emperor managed in 250 years of the Great Crusade.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I think this raises an interesting point about the rebuilding of the Imperiums armed forces. I've read somewhere that in the Codex RG split the Imperial Army into the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Fleet along with splitting the legions. I wonder at what point during the scourging this was done as the last thing a weak Imperium needed was to have to totally reorganise their fighting forces at the height of the scourging and RG would have realised this.

Also, Pre heresy the Legions (assuming the larger 100000 k estimates are correct numbered roughly 1880000 Space Marines:

Based on 15 * 100000 = 1500000 (estimate)
Ultras = 250000
Raven Guard = 80000
Salamanders = 50000 (complete guess but they were the smallest Legion)
I've not included the missions legions obviously

Now these 1880000 were produced in the roughly 250 years of the Great Crusade.

After the HH and the Scourging we've seen that the total remaining Space Marines totalled the 21 2nd founding chapters as per http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Second_Founding plus the 26 of the Ultras giving a total of 47000 Space Marines.

I wonder why now there are only roughly 1 million Space Marines? Has it taken the Imperium 10000 years to create less than the Emperor managed in 250 years of the Great Crusade.
I would say yes it would. This is the Big E were talking about here the man who could fix things just by looking at them.
We also know that the screening process for recruits is far more stringent in the 41st Millenium than in the 31st. Just look at Tyfus here was a man who had sold his soul to Nurgle even before he was recruited and he became a Space Marine Captain! Thats the kind of thing that the Chapters of the 41st millenium try and screen against. Not to mention that the training and indoctrination seems far more intense when compared to the Crusade era marines.

All this makes me wonder how a Company of 41st Millenium Marines would measure up to a Heresy Era bunch. In terms of mental and spiritual fortitude at least i think the 40k boys would be much tougher than the 30k.
 

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Question, when half of the WBs during the HH attacked Ultramar with the Abyss, well if the Ultras had 250,000+ SMs shouldnt the Abyss and WBs be wiped out (by numbers alone in fleet, and SMs) a hundred times over? Yet the WBs manage to do major damage and fled with a HUGE size WBs into the Maelstrom. Im curious if this is true and if so then HOW THE HELL does this Fluff justify these outcomes.

Makes no sense if the Ultras had so many SMs....


Now as for IF, their Geneseed is widespread. Both Storm of Iron and Dead Sky Black Sun are about the HUGE IF Geneseed for back up uses and future foundings. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......... makes you wonder if the Ultras are all that in numbers. I belive it was also stated that that there is only 2 places with that house the Geneseed banks, wonder whos Geneseed is in the other place.

Now add in that the Second Foundings of IF include...da da da.... BTs would put the IF Legion close to Ultras in numbers, IF the BTs, CFs, IFs, and whats left of the Soul Drinkers were to reunite. If Honsou had not taken the huge Geneseed deposit then the IFs be even way more bumped in numbers.

I put IFs as second to Ultras in Legion Strength. If we are considering Chapters uniting.

Now in case of Single Chapters then thats easy, BTs and SWs have pulled a fast one on Guillimans decrees.
 

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According to the fact that it's stated that the Ultramarines were relatively unharmed by the events of the Heresy then obviously the Word Bearers didn't manage to devastate much of the Legion.

Actually you've got it wrong, in Storm of Iron and Dead Sky, Black Sun it's a repository of a portion of all Astartes geneseed of which only a part is descended from the Imperial Fists. The majority would still be of Guilliman's stock.

Just because the BT's are a huge chapter now certainly doesn't mean they were larger than a standard chapter when they were founded- in fact all evidence would suggest they were no larger than the Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists.
I too would put Imperial Fists second behind the Ultramaries in a 'uniting of geneseed' scenario, but it would be a distant second as the Guilliman's geneseed is more prevalent than all the other Legion's contributions.
 

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Craw-Daddy
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Thats hardly a perfect failsafe. And also several chapters coordinating efforts has happened many times before, which is essentially what you just preposed.

And whats your reasoning behind your opinion that it was a mistake to dissolve the Legions in favour of Chapters?
Not really a mistake, just an unfortunate thing for a legion to have so much strength and the ability to take over entire galaxies and defend itself against virtually anything to be dispersed into chapters. A smart enemy would think divide and conquer. But I do agree with the chapter concept now that the primarchs are out of the picture. Lesser leaders are easily swayed to temptations of chaos. Notably Erebus, and Typhon.

"Your essentially saying that a multi-chapter crusade would be a good idea? Well it's happened before, notably the 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade." Baron Spike

Yes I think that having more marines at a Legion of in this case if they decided to make a Crusade Doctrine like army disposal, is very beneficial to the Imperium. In Heros of the Space Marines, One company was awaiting assistance from its mother chapter for months. It never came. This type of thing happens all the time with space marines. Space Marines are generally too hot headed and though sending 1 company of 100 space marines is a tremendous force in any battle, you just can't expect them to subdue a an entire rebellious world without aid. Thats why I think that having more marines deployed as a whole would be more beneficial. That way they don't have to worry about them dieing because of some last stand and losing an entire companies worth of geneseed.
 

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Remember that the vast majority of astartes fleet vessels are not piloted by astartes but rather by chapter serfs, most smaller astartes space craft have a
crew of less than 10 marines. The SWs were an active chapter during the black crusades and have been attack on fenris by the 1000 sons at least twice "recently". I have no idea how big fenris is but it is the primary recruiting world, based on the current difficulty of recruiting compatible astartes they can't be much bigger than about 2000 marines
 

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According to the fact that it's stated that the Ultramarines were relatively unharmed by the events of the Heresy then obviously the Word Bearers didn't manage to devastate much of the Legion.
Okay, still doesnt explain how these WBs outnumbered 10 to 1 destroyed the atmoshere of one Ultramar World, destroyed mutiple Ultra ships (not small craft either, major ships), and battle Ultramar itself. The WB then mostly survived and ran of to the Maelstrom. This is half of a single legion battling ALL of the Ultramarines. If the number of Ultras as most propose is, then the WBs are outnumbered 10 t0 1 and still came out intact. How is this possible unless the WBs are much better Ship fighters than the Ultras? I have not read the book but I like to know how this happen?

Actually you've got it wrong, in Storm of Iron and Dead Sky, Black Sun it's a repository of a portion of all Astartes geneseed of which only a part is descended from the Imperial Fists. The majority would still be of Guilliman's stock.
I have to re read it but I thought it was all IF Geneseed. I know the Daemoncubla (however you spell it) took mash up Genetic material from any Marine type, mix it together, fed it to the Daemoncubla, and give birth to a skinless MEQ monster.

Just because the BT's are a huge chapter now certainly doesn't mean they were larger than a standard chapter when they were founded- in fact all evidence would suggest they were no larger than the Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists.
I too would put Imperial Fists second behind the Ultramaries in a 'uniting of geneseed' scenario, but it would be a distant second as the Guilliman's geneseed is more prevalent than all the other Legion's contributions.
Cant argue with that.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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If you are referring to the battle of the abyss, the ultra marines were caught by surprise and they are most certainly not horrid ship to ship fighters, if I am not mistaken they took the ship with relatively few troops. Also weren't the WB assisted by the WE in the book?
 

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If you are referring to the battle of the abyss, the ultra marines were caught by surprise and they are most certainly not horrid ship to ship fighters, if I am not mistaken they took the ship with relatively few troops. Also weren't the WB assisted by the WE in the book?
Well this is what I wanted to know. I never read the book, only know the background story. Half the Word Bearers in the baddest ship took on all the Ultramarines on their home turf, and most survive to flee to the Maelstrom.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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I don't think very many of them survived the battle and they never really took on the entire ultramar.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Regarding the Battle of Calth, the Word Bearers have been mentioned as the second largest Legion, and it wasn't necessarily half of the Legion that went to Calth, it could have been most of the Legion.

Given the Furious Abyss and the element of surprise, its perfectly plausable that the Word Bearers would have triumphed. But due to terrible plot devices the Furious Abyss was destroyed.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Regarding the Battle of Calth, the Word Bearers have been mentioned as the second largest Legion, and it wasn't necessarily half of the Legion that went to Calth, it could have been most of the Legion.

Given the Furious Abyss and the element of surprise, its perfectly plausable that the Word Bearers would have triumphed. But due to terrible plot devices the Furious Abyss was destroyed.
It wasn't a great book I admit. Captain Skraal was the only reason to read that book. The World Eaters really need their own book.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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In all fairness to the writers........ none of them are anything to write home about. lol
 

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Discussion Starter #58
In all fairness to the writers........ none of them are anything to write home about. lol
Depends what you're looking for. You're not going to get War and Peace but you will get a fun book to read. Which is what they are. Unless you read Battle for the Abyss at which point you should just read the bits with Skraal while listening to the Die Hard theme.

Also don't read Eldar Phrophesy or whatever it's called it made me want to burn things.
 

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Never heard of Dark Apostle, Dark Disciple, and Dark Creed? Ive only read Dark Disciple so far, and it was awsome. The Word Bearers fought the Nids, Gaurd, and showed the DE who fears who. I really loved the DE reaction to the WBs and vice versa. Pick it up. In the first one they fought Necs and at the end of Dark Disciple mention the Necs from the first book heading to the EoT to challenge Dark Apostle Marduk. Its preatty badass.
 

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Ok ckcrawford, you're asking for crusade type organisation, well its called the black templars!!

A high marshall (the boss of it all)

A marshall (he is boss of his own crusade)

A castellan (he is boss of the fighting companies)

Then the jumble that is the rest of the army...

anyways, IF the chapters were to reunite...unlikely, the only ones that might are are the wolves and angels, smurfs are too rigid, IF and CF maybe, but templars are too independent, everyone else, well, they have their own problems...there would have to be a VERY good reason for it...say..the eye of terror expands, like HEAPS!! (oh no, not ultramar! what a loss! hehe)...but you'd have to think about what the problems with that would be, establishing new order, making sure there is no infighting or fallen running amok in the ranks, way too much effort.

In the end, itd be more of a loss then a gain, when you can just send in groups of chapters, instead of making it one whole one!

Oh and on the note of the inquisition proving that we have upwards of 6000 marines, who cares?? they won't do anything, cause if they attacked us, we would retaliate, as well as all our fist friends, then super smurf would come and rescue the day, only to be stuck in bloody warfare. whats that i hear you say?? oh and i forgot to mention, some friends in the form of our chaos buddies would rock up to crush the imperium and not long after da boyz wood come to join da biggest fight eva!! so no roblems with the inquisition...

...besides they havent even checked out the super smurf's gloves of ultramar yet, you know, the ones he stole off a chaos champ?? therefore tainted and heretical! marenus calgar *cough*heretic*cough* . Who said that??!?!
 
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