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In fairness I do not believe the SW numbers was hammered out and I only let the matter drop because I didn't want to totally take another thread off topic. For reference my contra post in that thread is below.

I saw that to but by definition battle hardened (as it says 200 battle hardened wariors) within the SW's would mean Grey Hunter or above as it is only after emerging victorious from the fiercest of battles are they considered for promotion to GH. By this definiton I am guessing Blood Claws, Sky Claws and Swift Claws would not fall into the battle hardened category. I guess the question here is how many various Claws are maintained by each company.

The codex also mentions the Fang hangars hold hundreds of ships each capable of holding enough SW's to change the course of a war. I guess how many SW's does it take to change the course of a war is the question here. The codex also mentions the Fang holding over 100 Dreadnoughts which is pretty impressive bar Marines. The codex also states the chapter was only divided once so I guess the next question was how big was the Legion before it's division.

Another consideration I think that is worth taking in to account is I would imagine each company would have some of their number seconded to other duties e.g. ship protection, HQ specialisms, Fang Garrison duty, bodyguard duties etc otherwise how could the Fang maintain itself (this could also be true for other Chapters but the Fang and it's fleet sounds a bit of a beast). This would mean the fighting companies may not be refelective of their or indeed the Chapter's true number. I would imagine their must also be an immense amout of Support personnel within the Fang albeit they would not be Marines.

Lastly Logan's company should be the biggest and it could be quite a bit bigger considering it is the Alpha company and also has the Wolf Priests, Iron Priests & Rune Priests and aforementioned Dreadnoughts under Logan's disposal. Really the codex alludes to the Fang being so large and so active that there must be a significant number of Marines wihin the Chapter.

In summary I would love to know the true figure even if it was much less than my estimation. The codex alludes to a gigantic force but then there are some anomalies e.g. Ragnars company size quoted although maybe open to interpretation. I also guess the size of a company can wax and wane dependent on if the company/chapter has just been engaged in a large battle.
While the point about 200 warriors led by Ragnar is the bit the argument all hinges around. By definition battle hardened would exclude a lot of warriors & indeed the codex may be just referring to Ragnar's Wolf Guard. The other big one for me stated in the codex is the Fang maintains hundreds of ships (by definition hundreds must mean more than 300). Why would they maintain such a huge fleet if they didn't have the Marine power to put on them. The codex also states they do not log Thunderwolf cavalry as they would be seen as a no no by Terra.

While the SW may not be the largest stand alone chapter I would certainly put them in the top 3. As mentioned the Ultramarines could pull in more support but this is different from stand alone.
 

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By your definition of battle hardened that would exclude a lot of warriors, I believe that it means all the Warriors in his Company including the Blood Claws. It doesn't say 200 veteran troops, just battle hardened which means all his troops have taken part in campaigns off world.

Your right the Fang has hangars for hundreds of spacecraft, but considering a Thunderhawk is considered a spacecraft and that Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges wouldn't be able to descend far enough into the atmosphere to be housed in a hangar (even if there was one big enough) that not's really indicative of them having a fleet any larger than a space-bourne chapter.

The Fang is so large because:
A) it's a hollowed out mountain, the largest mountain in the Imperium!
B) it's designed to hold a force many times larger than the current Chapter.

Each company maintains it's own armouries, training areas etc in the Fang, has it's own complement of ships from the SW fleet and provides it's own Marines for these duties (though the smallest ships probably wouldn't even have a SW component onboard) why this would vastly increase a Company's number when every Chapter does the same is beyond me.

The Space Wolves ha ve a disproportionate number of Dreadnoughts but unlike a lot of Chapters they don't seem to use them in battle that often so fewer than average are probably irreparably damaged in combat.

All Chapters maintain a huge number of serfs, the SW are hardly unique in that fashion.

I believe it was stated in the 'weakest Legion/Chapter' thread but the SW were seriously mauled by their participation in the Heresy and the Scourging so when they eventually created a single second founding it wouldn't have surprised me that their numbers were so low.
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P.s. I also think they're in the top 3 largest single Chapters, just not any where near large as you suggest.
 

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Bane of Empires
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By your definition of battle hardened that would exclude a lot of warriors, I believe that it means all the Warriors in his Company including the Blood Claws. It doesn't say 200 veteran troops, just battle hardened which means all his troops have taken part in campaigns off world.

Your right the Fang has hangars for hundreds of spacecraft, but considering a Thunderhawk is considered a spacecraft and that Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges wouldn't be able to descend far enough into the atmosphere to be housed in a hangar (even if there was one big enough) that not's really indicative of them having a fleet any larger than a space-bourne chapter.

The Fang is so large because:
A) it's a hollowed out mountain, the largest mountain in the Imperium!
B) it's designed to hold a force many times larger than the current Chapter.

Each company maintains it's own armouries, training areas etc in the Fang, has it's own complement of ships from the SW fleet and provides it's own Marines for these duties (though the smallest ships probably wouldn't even have a SW component onboard) why this would vastly increase a Company's number when every Chapter does the same is beyond me.

The Space Wolves ha ve a disproportionate number of Dreadnoughts but unlike a lot of Chapters they don't seem to use them in battle that often so fewer than average are probably irreparably damaged in combat.

All Chapters maintain a huge number of serfs, the SW are hardly unique in that fashion.

I believe it was stated in the 'weakest Legion/Chapter' thread but the SW were seriously mauled by their participation in the Heresy and the Scourging so when they eventually created a single second founding it wouldn't have surprised me that their numbers were so low.
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P.s. I also think they're in the top 3 largest single Chapters, just not any where near large as you suggest.
Totally Agree. The Space Wolves got seriously mauled during the Heresy and the Scourging, theres no doubt about that. The Burning of Prospero involved going toe-to-toe with another Legion, and not just any legion but the probably the most dangerous one; The Thousand Sons.

Magnus if he wished could have destroyed the entire Space Wolf fleet before it even arrived at Prospero, but he chose not to. Magnus' legion on the other hand had different ideas and fought for every inch of Tizca. Powerful Sorcerers were merely flicking their wrists and sending dozens of Space Wolf Astartes to their deaths at a time.

The following Alpha Legion ambush also would have also reduced the Legion's numbers fairly significantly. And the years following the Heresy (The Scourging) where the galaxy-wide conflict continued, the Space Wolves would have undoubtedly fought at the forefront, further reducing their numbers.

Its safe to say that by the time of the Second Founding, the Space Wolves numbers were significantly reduced from Pre-Heresy.

As for the wording in the Space Wolves codex, I think your twisting it Chimaera. His company consists of around 200 Astartes, as the Codex says.
 

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As for the wording in the Space Wolves codex, I think your twisting it Chimaera. His company consists of around 200 Astartes, as the Codex says.
Me twist it? Never! Okay I have a slight bias but we all do on here to some extent.

For the record the Codex states "boasting amost 200 battle hardened warriors" it does not say Astartes or SM. Now taken literally yes you could assume 200 as full company stength but when you read the Codex and digest it's finer points. In the Space Wolves chapter battle hardened generally would encompass those of Grey Hunter or above. The Codex also strongly leads to the theory that the SW are much higher in number than a standard codex i.e. size of the Fang and I quote "Upon the very tip of the Fang is the SW fleet dock, where hundreds of spacecraft are maintained in armoured hangars inside the mountain. Each ship is able to carry enough SW to alter the course of a war within a single day or cripple a city with a bombardment from above".

While I accept that my initial figure of 9000 may have been a little too ambitious. After more careful consideration I think the SW number circa 4500.

With any luck somebody knows a grown up in GW and could seek clarification or maybe there is somebody out there who has read a particular novel that may clarify the numbers further.

Ultimately I am not that proud to admit I could be wrong (born liar as well :wink:) but I do not think there is enough evidence out there to suggest I am wrong at this time.
 

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Bane of Empires
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Me twist it? Never! Okay I have a slight bias but we all do on here to some extent.
:grin:

For the record the Codex states "boasting amost 200 battle hardened warriors" it does not say Astartes or SM.
No, but it is safe to assume that it refers to Astartes.

In the Space Wolves chapter battle hardened generally would encompass those of Grey Hunter or above.
Reading too much into it again I think :)

The Codex also strongly leads to the theory that the SW are much higher in number than a standard codex i.e. size of the Fang and I quote "Upon the very tip of the Fang is the SW fleet dock, where hundreds of spacecraft are maintained in armoured hangars inside the mountain. Each ship is able to carry enough SW to alter the course of a war within a single day or cripple a city with a bombardment from above".
A single Astartes can turn the course of a war. (Note Dark Creed).

Its obvious that the Space Wolves generally do disregard the Codex Astartes, but from what the Baron quoted (the second largest company consisting of 200 Astartes) gives us some reference to base their overall numbers on.
 

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I think that maybe the thread has gone a bit off topic(oh well)
The BT have at least 5000 to 6000, the SW i have no idea as to what there numbers are. and the DA well as the one guy said above, chapters combined would probably come some where near 6000 marines or stronger not counting recent deaths or recruts, so it could be weaker.
 

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I think that maybe the thread has gone a bit off topic(oh well)
The BT have at least 5000 to 6000, the SW i have no idea as to what there numbers are. and the DA well as the one guy said above, chapters combined would probably come some where near 6000 marines or stronger not counting recent deaths or recruts, so it could be weaker.
Actually discussing whether the Space Wolves are at Legion strength or not seems to be entirely on topic :grin:

I don't disagree that the Space Wolves are much larger than your standard Codex Chapter, just not any more than 2,000 absolute maximum.

Using the argument that the Chapter should be so much larger because the Fang is so vast is misleading- the Fang's internal structure is extensive because the Space Wolves Legion required the space, it wasn't built after the second founding so the Chapter uses the space already manufactured.
Using your example you could extrapolate that the Ultramarines should still be at 250,000 because they have the facilities in Ultramar for that many Astartes...


random perculation of thought- the Ultramarines really sacrificed themselves during the Heresy and especially during the Scourging in their efforts to hold the Imperium together- 9/10ths of the Legion perished. Don't believe me? The Ultramarines Legion have been stated as having 250,000 Astartes at their height, but during their 2nd founding they supposedly founded 23 primogenitor chapters, that's a drop in numbers of over 225,000 marines...and yet by the end of the Scourging the Ultramarines accounted for half of all the Astartes.
Heresy+Scourging= Astartes genocide
 

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After my above random perculation of thought, I had a cup of tea and it suddenly struck me that discovering how many marines were left of the Space Wolves Legion (and therefore how many were in the Chapter when it was first restructured) was simple. In fact it's so simple I actually groaned with how ignorant I'd been- the relevant info is sitting there on pages 8 & 13 of the Space Marine Codex!

The Ultramarines Legion divided into 24 Chapters, and by the end of the Scourging they accounted for roughly half of all Astartes- it's a simple case of going through each Legion and how many Chapters they divided into, leaving the SW for last so you can make an educated guess at how many marines were left in each Legion :grin:

For your viewing pleasure...

Dark Angels: 4 Chapters
White Scars: 5 Chapters
Imperial Fists: 4 Chapters (if you include the Soul Drinkers)
Blood Angels: 6 Chapters
Iron Hands: 3 Chapters
Salamanders: 1 Chapter
Raven Guard: 4 Chapters
=27 Chapters

Space Wolves: 2 Chapters

If the Ultramarines are accounting for roughly half of all Astartes and the remaining Legions, excluding the Space Wolves, founded 27 Chapters then that would suggest the Space Wolves Legion couldn't be much bigger than 2,000-3,000 Astartes just prior to the 2nd Founding. Even if the other Chapters were all under 1,000 strong the numbers don't support the SW having that many marines left to found a gigantic Chapter.
 

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While I accept there is some evidence supporting the SW may be lower than my estimate of 4500 there is also some evidence suggesting they could be as large as I believe. My argument is not mainly riding on the size of the Fang but also the size of their fleet (which they mantain). As an example why would an Army maintain equipment if it couldn't man it/use it. It would be like an airline having a fleet of 300+ planes but only having enough pilots and cabin crew to fly 100 and knowingly never going to have enough passengers even if you did up the pilots/cabin crew. It just wouldn't be realistic to maintain a fleet of that size and mantain it without capability. While I accept 1 Marine could influence a battle. I would think it highly unlikely SW command would send 1 Marine per ship on a mission and even if stealth was the order of the day I am sure they would deploy a back up squad also.

The Ultramarines info is curious as it would mean there were roughly 25,000 between the remaining loyal chapters. I guess the question is how the 25k was divided up?

Iron Hands, Raven Guard & Salamanders got decimated at Isstvan V.

Blood Angels, Imperial Fists & White Scars would have got mauled on Terra.

Dark Angels - Had to retake home world due to Chaos Turning & homeworld was subsequently torn apart.

Space Wolves - Heavy casulaties assaulting Prospero but not limited by Codex on recovery/recruitment.

Edit - Following on from the Baron's subsequent post. How many could the SW potentially have recruited since this time?
 

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And there is the sticking point, we can make a fairly educated guess as to how many marines the Space Wolves Chapter began with but then it's how you spin the 'evidence' that forms an idea of how many there are now.

Regarding the 300 (or more) ships- every ship of appreciable size has a complement of Thunderhawks, usually far more than that ship would need to have each full of Space Marines (with a Thunderhawk being able to convey roughly 30 Marines), for use in interstellar combat as fighter-bombers. Thunderhawks themselves are spacecraft so as I've pointed out before it's not that much of a stretch to believe those hundreds of ships would include Thunderhawks and upwards (or even downwards in the case of smaller shuttles) to fill those numbers fully.
Plus I don't know if you've noticed but the Imperium never throws equipment away unless it's been irreparably damaged- it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to assume the Space Wolves Legion's complement of assault craft came off better during the Heresy/Scourging than the troops who rode in them.

It would be an affront to the Machine God if the Iron Priests didn't keep every craft in working order, even if it had no use the majority of the time- your average Battle Barge can hold 200-300 Marines (so basically a Great Company in my reckoning) meaning it would need at least 10 Thunderhawks for transporting all the troops at once, then you've Thunderhawks Transporters for vehicles and more basic Thunderhawks to provide close defence for the Barge in orbit- that might be a complement of 20 or so spacecraft aboard a Battle Barge. Half that number for the more numerous Strike Cruisers and then a full complement permanently stationed at the Fang itself...
Suddenly you've got at least 100-150 Thunderhwks making up those hundreds of spacecraft
 

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Fair point regarding the wastage of equipment but post 24 straight out of the codex it states each ship is able to carry enough SW or bombard a planet. This would suggest that the ships are of similar size and while I have quoted 300, this is the minimum as by the definition of hundreds. In truth they could have 500 ships or even more, who knows?

In fairness I don't think it would be unreasonable for the SW to have recruited a few thousand since the Prospero days.
 

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Oh I'm sure over 10,000 years they've recruited 10's of thousands but I just don't believe they've ever kept the chapter much above 2,000 marines.

As you've shown the statement regarding the SW ships:
is able to carry enough Space Wolves to alter the course of a war or cripple a city with a bombardment
I've put the appropriate word in bold: some of the ships- cruisers, barges, frigates etc can do both but some like Thunderhawks can carry enough SW to affect a war but not bombard a planet.

Also it say the fleet gathers at the tip of the Fang, and that hundreds of spacecraft are maintained in armoured hangars- this suggests to me that those hundreds of spacecraft are of the smaller variety to be able to be housed in armoured hangars. With the smallest frigate 1km in length I seriously doubt even the Fang could house hundreds of ships of the line or fleet escorts in it's uppermost summit- docking maybe but I doubt there's more than a handful of hangars for ships of that size.
 

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A Baron I am enjoying our tete-a-tete. You have missed a key word off the quote though and that is the word "EACH" which is right at the start. Each by definiton means considered seperately. Hence each starship can carry enough SW to alter the course of a war OR bombard a planet. This would intimate that a lot are of similar size.

Fair point about the hangars and frigates but the Fang is reckoned to be the greatest outside Terra. I would also assume the whole fleet wouldn't be at the Fang at the same time and in the same way dry docks are rotated for real life ship maintenance. Sure there will be a lot of smaller craft but the indication is there is also a considerable number of large craft. Another key quote is the Codex mentions "Were a traveller to somehow penetrate the thick stormclouds that girdle the Fang and shroud it from mortal sight, he would at the very limits of his sight see these starships arrayed around the tip of the Fang, seeming to him no larger than ravens coming in to roost". This would indicate the tip the fang had serious docking facilities although I admit hundreds arrayed at the same time would be unreasonable.
 

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random perculation of thought- the Ultramarines really sacrificed themselves during the Heresy and especially during the Scourging in their efforts to hold the Imperium together- 9/10ths of the Legion perished. Don't believe me? The Ultramarines Legion have been stated as having 250,000 Astartes at their height, but during their 2nd founding they supposedly founded 23 primogenitor chapters, that's a drop in numbers of over 225,000 marines...and yet by the end of the Scourging the Ultramarines accounted for half of all the Astartes.
Heresy+Scourging= Astartes genocide
The problem with those numbers is that although some sources state the Ultramarines Legion could muster 250,000 Astartes, the same sources state that the average Legion size was 100,000 - with one of the smallest Legions being the Raven Guard with 80,000.

My point is that these numbers are at odds with most Heresy authors which generally seem to put average Legion size at 10,000.

I personally prefer to take the larger numbered Legions as more likely, but thats just me. Regardless though, this effects the concept of Chapters reuniting in Legion sized forces quite a lot.
 

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I have heard that the Ultramarines geneseed founded 60% of all the chapters and there are 1000 chapters. 60% of that is 600 chapters which is 600,000 marines.
If even a one tenth of the Ultramarines chapter, that would mean 60,000 marines which is more than equivalent to a legion.
 

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I hate chapters, It really just destroyed the Imperiums success. Though lol you could argue it did contribute to its demise. However due to the original legions being leaderless/ without primarchs. i think it was better to put them in chapters, due to the fact that I don't think chapter masters should be held responsible for a force as large as 100,000.
I personally don't think each chapter has only 1000 marines. If you think about it its pretty few due to the fact you retinues, transport drivers, pilots, and so many other positions to be filled as marines that it greatly reduces that number. Besides how do you keep track of fallen marines during long wars and crusades? "Battle Report: two dead marines, make to scouts into marines"? How about lost contact or lost companies? And how are the chapters enforced?
In my opinion they should all give the "Dorn Middle Finger" and begin the process of "crusades." That way if anyone asks they can just be like " I dont give a #### we are all in business we don't have time to count 1000 marines."
 

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Most Chapters (ie. 99%) have roughly 1,000 marines not 2,000. You do realise the Chapters didn't come into existence when the Primarchs disappeared right? They were around before then, most of the loyalist Primacrhs didn't begin to disappear till about a century after the Heresy.

'How do you keep track of fallen marines?'

By keeping records, each chapter will have extensive records about every marine, and they don't instantly convert 2 scouts into marines as soon as they find out a marine has died- it won't be until the company (or whatever size force) retires from a conflict that losses will begin to be replaced.
The Chapters are enforced by adhereing to the Codex and being policed by the rest of the Astartes and the Inquisition, a case in point would be the Black Templars- if anyone could prove that they are as large as everyone suspects they are then they'd be pursued by the Inquistion (and a number of Astartes).
 

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Yes I do understand that they came before primarchs disapeared. I just agree with the idea that at least in the year 40000 that it works well considering the circumstances. And yeah I miss wrote that about 2000 to 1000, Il fix that.

However, the fact about lost companies and bad communication has happened so many times that I wouldn't be surprised if a chapter master refilled his strength in fear of being understrength. A general is always concerned at the amount of man power, in this case the lack of man power.

Concerning the "Crusade Doctrine" I think that this would be very beneficial to the Astartes and the Imperium. If I could arrange it lol, I would have each crusade comprimised with 1000 marines each with its own Commander or Chapter Master. The entirity of its leadership would be made up of a council with chapter masters. One would be voted as "chief chapter master" and therefore have a reign for a certain time. That way a legion under a crusade doctrine could never be ruled over by one individual and in that sense not create a tremendous rebellion or turn to renegade or chaos. Thats the best way I think Guilleman would be happy without using the dumb chapter rule.
 
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