Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
We all know that Guilliman split the Legions during the second founding.

BUT.

Could there be some Legions that while they obeyed the wording of the law they didn't obey it's spirit. Could some First Founding Chapters still potentially call up Legion sized forces if they felt the need?

Now there are three forces I feel could potentially do this.

The Black Templars are pretty much a given since nobody knows how many crusade fleets they have dotted around the galaxy and it's highly likely they could easily call together a Legion sized force.

Space Wolves. Pretty much free from investigation nobody knows how many space wolves there are. It certainly seems like they have more battle brothers than the Codex Astartes would allow but if they come close to anything resembling Legion size i don't really know.

Dark Angels. Sure they split into a multitude of other chapters all calling themselves the Unforgiven... BUT all those second founding chapters still take orders from the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels. Given the nature of the Angels it doesn't seem that unlikely that under the right circumstances (such as somebody actually finding out about The Fallen and deciding to do something about it,) the Dark Angels could call on something of up to a Legion sized force....An Unforgiven Legion if you will.

Of course I don't see this happening under anything less than the most dire of circumstances, such as Terra being under direct threat or something similar.

But it's definatly got me thinking.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,044 Posts
The space wolves are probably the only chapter whose numbers could possibly come close to the size of the original legions. The great companies could range from so low as 150 to as large as 1000 so if we are to assume that they are 1000 battle brothers strong then that would put them at 12000 which is still lower than the 20000 held by the legions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
The space wolves are probably the only chapter whose numbers could possibly come close to the size of the original legions. The great companies could range from so low as 150 to as large as 1000 so if we are to assume that they are 1000 battle brothers strong then that would put them at 12000 which is still lower than the 20000 held by the legions.
Actually that still puts them at Legion strength since i believe the standard size for one of the Legions was 10,000 marines.
I didn't exactly mean which Chapters have Legion sized forces i mean which chapters could potentially call together such a force. Hence the Black Templars and the Dark Angels.

I still think the Angels are the most likely. All the Unforgiven seem to be operating in some sort of loose network.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions, maybe 2-3 times the size that the codex allows. which is why russ was so adamant against it, also the reason why they only had 1 second founding chapter (wolf brothers).

and i also believe that they are still somewhat near their original legion size.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,044 Posts
i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions, maybe 2-3 times the size that the codex allows. which is why russ was so adamant against it, also the reason why they only had 1 second founding chapter (wolf brothers).

and i also believe that they are still somewhat near their original legion size.
No, they refuse to fallow the codex because they refuse to allow someone to tell them how to run their army. It isn't because they were too small, it is because they are fiercely independent. And since they do not fallow the codex there is no reason to form successor chapters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,934 Posts
Well this discussion about the Space Wolves Chapter size has been hammered out before, and the Space Wolves Codex states that Ragnar's Company is 2nd only the Great Wolf's and that it contains 200 warriors- that does suggest that whilst the SW are larger than a Codex Chapter they aren't nearly as large as the projected numbers for the Black Templars (max of 5,000-6,000).

Remember that the Space Wolves were seriously mauled in the burning of Prospero, their clash with the Alpha Legion fleet en-route to Terra, and The Scourging directly after the Heresy. They only split into 2 Chapters and I sincerely doubt there were more than 3,000-4,000 marines left of the Legion when the 2nd Founding occurred.

I agree that the Unforgiven are one of closest group of independent Chapters, at least in my opinion- though strict Codex Chapters (especially those of Guillimans stock) would probably rally to the call of the Ultramarines, of course the Imperial Fists are the singularly most influential Chapter of the Astartes (the Ultramarines are probably more influential amongst the Astartes but in the wider Imperium the IF are more highly regarded).
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
the 20000 held by the legions.
i believe the standard size for one of the Legions was 10,000 marines.
Depending on what source you use the Legion sizes range on average from 10,000 to 100,000. With some sources claiming the largest Legion (Ultramarines) even being as high as 250,000.

i believe that the space wolves were one of the smallest legions
I don't believe thats even hinted at anywhere.

As for First Founding Chapters being able to draw together their successive founded chapters into a coherent force, I imagine its plausable. As you said the Dark Angels spring to mind. But heck, I imagine even the Ultramarines could draw together a large number of their successor chapters into a coherent force.
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,044 Posts
I would put them at a somewhat higher number, possibly 4000 men. Perspero wasn’t much of a fight from what I heard, although I could be wrong, and they had the custodians to back them up. I was under the impression that the contingent of custodians what were sent did a considerable amount of damage to the thousand sons. The space battle against the alpha legion would have been a much more difficult fight since they would have been lead by the primarch. I would put them at maybe 7000 at the end but no more. As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.
 

·
Bane of Empires
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
I would put them at a somewhat higher number, possibly 4000 men. Perspero wasn’t much of a fight from what I heard, although I could be wrong, and they had the custodians to back them up. I was under the impression that the contingent of custodians what were sent did a considerable amount of damage to the thousand sons. The space battle against the alpha legion would have been a much more difficult fight since they would have been lead by the primarch.
The Burning of Prospero was devastating for the Space Wolves. They may have triumphed, but they got badly mauled in the process. And as the Baron said the subsequent Alpha Legion ambush and the wars of the Scourging would have only further reduced their numbers.

At the time of the second founding the Space Wolves would have been a far cry (number wise) from where they were at their peak.

As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.
well six known successor chapters aswell as the Dark Angels Chapter themselves would mean at least 7000 Astartes, and thats if they strictly keep to the Codex. By the implications we have that would mean they could pull more men than the Black Templars, although it isn't fully clear as an accurate number of the Templars can never be taken.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
As for the dark angels and their successor chapters I believe there are only six known chapters so I don't see them pulling more men than the black templars.
If there are only six known chapters that still puts the hypothetical "Unforgiven Legion" (I really am starting to love that name) at an equal strength to the Black Templars
 

·
Death Before Dishonour
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
i depends on if the Legion size is taken of chapter size or first founding Legions concentrating their successor chapters in a single place.

It would probably be close between Ultramarines+ successors and Imperial Fists+ successors
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
If you were to have a huge hypothetical fight between all the different geneseed derived Chapters, the Ultramarines and their descendents would win absolutely no question about it. Roboute Guilliman's geneseed is currently the basis for 3/5ths of all Astartes!
Problem is that the Ultramarines and their successors aren't bound together in any way. The very nature of the Codex means that rather than acting as a whole they would try and act as a coalition force rather than a Legion
 

·
Grand Lord Munchkin
Joined
·
7,044 Posts
It would only generate 6100 at max. One of those six has been reduced to only 100 marines, give or take.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
I don't believe any of the first founding could summon up their old legion strength. One reason being that you would probably need a Primarch to do it and despite the use of common space marine geneseeds not all chapters are created directly from the first founding legions. There are chapters which are created outside the influence of the first and second founding; but use a geneseed based off of the loyalist Primarchs. So you can easily have a chapter which is derived from Rogal Dorn's geneseed; but they have never trained or fought alongside the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists or Black Templars. Which means there is no guarantee that all the chapters of Rogal Dorn's geneseed would unite under one banner. The same can be said about the Ultramarines and any successors.

The Black Templars are constantly driving on their own crusades with little contact with one another so summoning up their full strength would be very difficult.

The Dark Angels and their successors may be connected; but I doubt the chapter master of the Dark Angels has enough influence summon them all. So unless Lion El'Jonson is making a come back its not gonna happen.

Space Wolves are a massive chapter; but nowhere near what they used to be.

Basically you are gonna need a man or Chapter master of great influence to summon up a strength worthy of the Legions and right now the only ones I think that can get away with that are the High Lords of Terra.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Basically you are gonna need a man or Chapter master of great influence to summon up a strength worthy of the Legions and right now the only ones I think that can get away with that are the High Lords of Terra.
Actually the High Lords of Terra are the last people who would be able to do that. Especially with the Wolves Templars and Angels. They have very little respect or patients for the High Lords.

As for the Unforgiven they do generally defer to the orders of the Dark Angels Inner Circle so it's highly likely that the Inner Circle could call together several Unforgiven chapters to act together as a Legion far more easily than other bunches. Especially if the fallen are involved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,934 Posts
Well the Ultramarines have close ties with their successors, so whilst they may not be quite as close knit as the Unforgiven they can bring significantly more allied Astartes to the equation. Take the Honour Company- the Ultramarines and it's dozens of allies keep a combined company permanently on station outside the Eye of Terror. That suggests that the UM coordinates with a significant number of Astartes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
716 Posts
I bet the Leader of the Custodes could unite all the space marine chapters and legions and be considered the new "Emperor". lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Well the Ultramarines have close ties with their successors, so whilst they may not be quite as close knit as the Unforgiven they can bring significantly more allied Astartes to the equation. Take the Honour Company- the Ultramarines and it's dozens of allies keep a combined company permanently on station outside the Eye of Terror. That suggests that the UM coordinates with a significant number of Astartes.
If only they would Unite and launch the Second Great Crusade. I bet a few Space Marine Legions would give even the Tyranid hive fleets a good kicking!
 
1 - 20 of 101 Posts
Top