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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hey all,

Okay, whilst piecing together my new Chaos marine force, I have hit a choice dilemma.

Expanding to 1500 points, I bought myself a unit of Blood Warriors and a bunch of parts to convert some Berzerkers. I am very happy with them aesthetically!

However, here lies my concern. Whether to take them as Khorne Berzerkers OR Marines with the mark of Khorne.

Here are the two choices:

9 Khorne Berzerkers
-Champion w/ Twin Lightning Claws & Melta Bombs
-Rhino w/ Havok Launcher
= 263

Or

9 Chaos Space Marines
-8xCCW & Bolt Pistol
-Champion w/ Lightning Claws & Melta Bombs
-1 Meltagun
-9x Mark of Khorne
-Rhino w/ Havok Launcher
= 237

*The reasoning for 9 models is that a Lord is running with the unit - The Lord usually runs a Murder Sword, Melta Bombs, Mark of Slannash and a Sigil*

What do people suggest? I feel the Marines with the mark are more tactically flexible, and the general consensus is that Berzerkers are considerably underwhelming in this 'Dex.
However, Furious Charge, Fearless, & WS5 I feel are all pretty strong pros' for the KBs.

I'm feeling the inclusion of the Meltagun tips the scale, but would be curious to see what people have to say.

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum branch.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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See, this is where Rhinos get frustrating--if it were for a squad without a Lord I'd say "2 meltaguns all the way, and grab an Icon of Wrath if you're set on pseudo-zerkers," but with the 9-mini limitation...

That said, it's pretty depressing to ship a Lord in a non-assault vehicle. Disembark, get shot at, let enemies move away... then you can assault. Not that our overpriced, drunken-weaponed land raiders are much better (& STILL run up against the 10 mini limit, yay!).

Pros to Zerkers: WS5
Pros to CSM with Icon of Wrath: get every special rule, get to reroll charge ranges, get Fearless from the Lord, and get a meltagun shot, for about the same cost once you tally the higher price of Zerkers vs meltagun and IoW.

I like CSM more, for all that the things that make them even/better are conditional and can be killed.

On the Lord though I would very much recommend the Axe of Blind Fury. An opposing character can stay away from your infantry-speed character pretty easily, and it's otherwise a double-costed power sword. Would much rather CRUSH ANY ENEMY SQUAD OR CHARACTER UNDER 6-12 ATTACKS AT S6 AP 2 (with slight chance of frying own brain). Another compelling argument for a Khornate Lord is that you can't have a Lord with one mark join another-marked unit, so unless you want to run either the Lord or the CSM unmarked...

I generally only run 1 LC on my champs, since the marginal utility of paying full price for the second merely for 1 more attack... doesn't do it for me, especially when fisticlaws (still 2 spec weaps) is so much less of a jump up--and even cheaper, counting the "no longer need meltabombs" discount. Still, I generally go a lightning claw and meltabombs to keep the character I might have to throw away in a sacrificial challenge to keep my Lord alive (or to let my Lord slaughter the enemy squad before they strike)... inexpensive.

Would also recommend a dirge caster on the Rhino. Rhinos are made out of soggy cardboard not worth loading upgrades onto, so my rule of thumb is "if staying back to shoot, havoc launcher; if closing in alongside melee troops, dirge caster."
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So as bad as Land Raiders are, and assuming I follow the changes made to the Lord Load out - IS IT WORTH investing in a landraider?

I love the idea of being in assault, but this 'no charge after disembark' makes me think just taking Bolter Marines is the better choice... albeit not as fun.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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So as bad as Land Raiders are, and assuming I follow the changes made to the Lord Load out - IS IT WORTH investing in a landraider?

I love the idea of being in assault, but this 'no charge after disembark' makes me think just taking Bolter Marines is the better choice... albeit not as fun.
Uh oh, I edited that a few times--dunno when you saw it (for instance on the Lord load out: can't have Mark of Slaanesh character in a Mark of Khorne unit, sorry)

Generally the compromise I run is to take a bike and run my Lord in Bikers or on Soawn, honestly. Option C when choosing between A and B. :|

Honestly I don't take AV14 much these days, in the age of Imperial Knights and Wraithknights and grav and haywire galore. For paying such a premium on survivability... there is a whole lot that kills it quite easily.

Forge World kind of has alternatives in the Fire Raptor, over-priced spikey drop pods, and the Spartan Assault Tank.

Sorry, I wish I could make a strong and clear recommendation, but CSM just plain don't have very good transport options.

Bolter+CCW+bp CSM are more flexible than tac marines, so make for a decent list, just... don't have Chapter Tactics, grav, ATSKNF, etc. So bolter marine gunline is both less fun... and done better by other bolter marines.
 

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Also as a secondary caveat: I've been giving mostly competitiveish advice here (real competitive advice would be "don't field CSM until their codex gets a rewrite, but...), and if you just want to have fun with your collection, and your meta isn't too intense, sure, throw a Lord in a Rhino and have at it!

Or Kharn. He's about as survivable as another infantry AoBF Lord--why build a murder machine from scratch when it's sitting there pre-built to fill the same role? I sure there are some Age of Sigmar minis who could make a cool custom Kharn kitbash.
 

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A land raider is a weird unit to assess. Its cost can't be ignored but it has some good points that aren't always mentioned. With a good CC unit inside it makes a great target for invisibility at the start of the game; it's tall and wide enough to block LOS to a unit moving alongside it (rhino, bikes, daemon prince, raptors etc.); if it survives to drop off its transported unit where it needs to be you'll have a great objective grabber for the rest of the game that probably isn't worth the effort to destroy and even though many armies have good ways to take out land raiders there are lists out there that just don't have the tools to stop AV14
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Sorry, I've not played Chaos since the Dual Lash Prince meta.

So, Codex Chaos Space Marines truly is as shit as I thought it was when I first read it? I truly do not understand how they thought it reasonable to make them so bad.

Perhaps I should proxy from Codex Space Wolves instead?
 

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landraider, combimelta, dirge caster, destroyer blades
Khorne lord with murder axe
9 khorne marines with power maul, meltagun, meltabombs

run forward, unload melee killers, shoot things and run over some other things.

Competitive? NOPE.
Classy? HELL YEAH.
also, my ork opponent is always taken off guard when i unexpectedly field such unit. Stupid unit. laugh and sillyness ensue (also lots of dead plastic soldiers). and a nice evening is spent :grin:
 

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I would go with the generic CSM unit - just make sure that the generic marines have all three weapons (Bolter, Pistol, CCW). That is by far the best starting unit for a MoK unit ... bezerkers just do not do it for me anymore (mostly due to edition changes, rather than unit changes)

Hope that helps.
 
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