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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, I came across an opportunity in the fluff for a new nightmare to be unleashed on the galaxy.

1. During the Battle of Macragge A Retribution class Destroyer detonated its warp drive and sucked a portion of Hive Fleet Behemoth into the Warp. The splinter is assumed dead but as we know Tyranids have an astounding ability to adapt and survive. What if the splinter found a way to survive in the Warp? They say no living thing that isn't tainted can survive in the Warp, but if anything can put that theory to the test, the swarm makes a great candidate.

2. The Imperium leads Hive Fleet Leviathan to the Eye of Terror and says "Here Abbadon, we have a present for you!" Though give how the Tyranids evolve though reverse engineering DNA and forced adaptation... and how the Imperium's plans seem to always backfire, this could be a very bad idea.

What do you guys think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I think the hive mind would be driven crazy by the warp. And honestly, there isn't traditional biomass in the warp, how would they survive on warpmass?

There is fluff for that, while Leviathan was eating a world a warp portal opened and demons flooded out. At first the Hive Mind ignored them until a point when the Hive Mind identified them as a threat then surrounded the demons with Biovores and Exocrenes. The Hive Mind pounded the demons with artillery until the demons retreated. Interacting with the demons didn't drive the Hive Mind insane, it looked at the demons with indifference.

As to how Tyrands would get energy from Warpmass. Photosynthesis -> Warpsynthesis.
 

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There is fluff for that, while Leviathan was eating a world a warp portal opened and demons flooded out. At first the Hive Mind ignored them until a point when the Hive Mind identified them as a threat then surrounded the demons with Biovores and Exocrenes. The Hive Mind pounded the demons with artillery until the demons retreated. Interacting with the demons didn't drive the Hive Mind insane, it looked at the demons with indifference.
I would say that there is a difference between battling daemons and actually being inside The Warp. The Warp is unreality made manifest - Nothing makes sense and all sense of natural law is thrown out the window. Daemons are just minor manifestations of this and can be killed. Hence, the Hivemind saw this and bombarded the unholy snot out of them. Done deal.

Could The Hivemind be driven insane by The Warp? Possibly. Either that or Nurgle is gonna have one hell of a time.
 

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The other problem here is a practical one. What would chaos Tyranids look like and how would they function?

So are we now talking Tyranids with tentacles, extra mouths, big claws, strange weapons? Is that really different or worth doing? I rather doubt it.

Unless there's some reasonable precedent for Tyranids being possessed by daemons or dedicating themselves to chaos I don't think this will really work.

The only fluff I know of which supported this was the original fluff on genestealer cults. In its earliest incarnation, genestealer cults could dedicate themselves to chaos. I don't know if that's been totally retconned or just ignored. But once the cult gets absorbed by the hive fleet I think it's a moot point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would say that there is a difference between battling daemons and actually being inside The Warp. The Warp is unreality made manifest - Nothing makes sense and all sense of natural law is thrown out the window. Daemons are just minor manifestations of this and can be killed. Hence, the Hivemind saw this and bombarded the unholy snot out of them. Done deal.

Could The Hivemind be driven insane by The Warp? Possibly. Either that or Nurgle is gonna have one hell of a time.
But I would say that fluff proves that seeing the Warp did not provoke a flee response in the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind didn't care if the Warp was there or not.

I never said that the "Warp Mind" and the Hive Mind would be exactly the same, that would be an evolutionary split, it's only logical that they wouldn't be the same. Hell, if the Warp Mind and the Hive Mind find each other they would even try to kill each other. And who knows, there have been any psykers that were driven insane from hearing the Hive Mind, I don't recall any psykers being driven insane from hearing the three magically gods.... Maybe hearing this Warp Mind drive Nurgle insane... or more insane, if that's possible.
 

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The only fluff I know of which supported this was the original fluff on genestealer cults. In its earliest incarnation, genestealer cults could dedicate themselves to chaos. I don't know if that's been totally retconned or just ignored. But once the cult gets absorbed by the hive fleet I think it's a moot point.
Wasn't there a Spacehulk in a story at some point, where they encountered chaos infected Tyranid? I haven't read it myself, but I have heard people on here talk about it.

Maybe hearing this Warp Mind drive Nurgle insane... or more insane, if that's possible.
Yeah he's already bat-shit crazy, so that would be a sight for sore eyes :D
 

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I'm a fan of warphsisntesys
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The other problem here is a practical one. What would chaos Tyranids look like and how would they function?

So are we now talking Tyranids with tentacles, extra mouths, big claws, strange weapons? Is that really different or worth doing? I rather doubt it.

Unless there's some reasonable precedent for Tyranids being possessed by daemons or dedicating themselves to chaos I don't think this will really work.

The only fluff I know of which supported this was the original fluff on genestealer cults. In its earliest incarnation, genestealer cults could dedicate themselves to chaos. I don't know if that's been totally retconned or just ignored. But once the cult gets absorbed by the hive fleet I think it's a moot point.
I was picturing something energy based more than all mutated like CSM, a predator to demons. The is a picture of a Bloodthirster with its whip around a Carnifex's neck and more people saying that it was a foregone conclusion, I just wanted to see a Carnifex wrenching the neck of a Bloodthirster. Maybe in game like a swarm version of demons. If I could draw a connection, how close the stat line of the Genestealer and Demonette are.
 

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The tyranids are susceptible to the physical corruption of Chaos, but the tyranids lack any semblance of emotions as we could understand it. As such, they do not feed the Chaos gods by their actions and if they are aware of the daemons or gods at all, it would be as either a threat or something to be ignored, not prey as with other life forms.

Also, the Hive Mind itself exists entirely within the warp and is channeled by the synapse creatures of the swarm. It is a reflection of the collective tyranid psyche comprised of their entire race across all the hive fleets and in between. Something of that sheer scale would not be intimidated easily, even by a Chaos god. Hypothetically, given the spread of the Shadow in the Warp that accompanies the Hive Fleets, it is entirely possible that the tyranids are as capable of feeding on warp energy as flesh. The Hive Mind's spreading influence via the shadow in the warp driving psykers insane could be an indicator that the tyranids are in fact feeding on psychic energy as they encroach, drowning out psykers and daemons alike.
 

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...Also, the Hive Mind itself exists entirely within the warp...
Do we really know this?

My understanding had been that "the shadow in the warp" was like the water displaced by a large ship. Each living/sentient being has a representation in the warp. The hive mind as a colossal psychic organism has accordingly a huge presence in the warp.

Considering the stories of the hive fleets which encountered one another and immediately fought, that suggests that there is no single hive mind spanning the universe and connecting all the hive fleets, but that each fleet has a separate hive mind.
 

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Do we really know this?

My understanding had been that "the shadow in the warp" was like the water displaced by a large ship. Each living/sentient being has a representation in the warp. The hive mind as a colossal psychic organism has accordingly a huge presence in the warp.

Considering the stories of the hive fleets which encountered one another and immediately fought, that suggests that there is no single hive mind spanning the universe and connecting all the hive fleets, but that each fleet has a separate hive mind.
The Swarmlord is able to manifest within any Hive Fleet, suggesting a common link between them all. I tend to think of each hive fleet as having its own dominant minds, represented by the hive tyrants and norn queens. Whether these are rivals with one another across fleets is unclear, but the fact that any of them can summon one particular tyrant when needed proves there is at least some form of contact between them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
The Swarmlord is able to manifest within any Hive Fleet, suggesting a common link between them all. I tend to think of each hive fleet as having its own dominant minds, represented by the hive tyrants and norn queens. Whether these are rivals with one another across fleets is unclear, but the fact that any of them can summon one particular tyrant when needed proves there is at least some form of contact between them.
Or that the Norn Queens share a common blueprint for the Swarmlord, and making a Swarmlord takes so much more resources then even a standard Hive Tyrant to make a creature that intelligent that they don't make it unless they need it. So like, the Swarmlord that fought Calgar is not the same entity that fought Ra, it's a twin or clone. They lead different lives, therefor they're different "people", even though they're genetically the same.
 

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Or that the Norn Queens share a common blueprint for the Swarmlord, and making a Swarmlord takes so much more resources then even a standard Hive Tyrant to make a creature that intelligent that they don't make it unless they need it. So like, the Swarmlord that fought Calgar is not the same entity that fought Ra, it's a twin or clone. They lead different lives, therefor they're different "people", even though they're genetically the same.
No, the codex specifies that individual Hive Tyrants can be cloned any number of times if they are slain, seeming to indicate that their minds exist within the Hive Mind collective as individuals and create new bodies as necessary.

The Swarmlord is an example of this, a particularly powerful Hive Tyrant not bound by any specific Hive Fleet that appears apparently as a stress induced reaction where normal adapt and evolve tactics won't work. The Swarmlord was engineered specifically to out-think its enemies, which would suggest that not every Hive Tyrant is capable of this to the same degree.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
No, the codex specifies that individual Hive Tyrants can be cloned any number of times if they are slain, seeming to indicate that their minds exist within the Hive Mind collective as individuals and create new bodies as necessary.

The Swarmlord is an example of this, a particularly powerful Hive Tyrant not bound by any specific Hive Fleet that appears apparently as a stress induced reaction where normal adapt and evolve tactics won't work. The Swarmlord was engineered specifically to out-think its enemies, which would suggest that not every Hive Tyrant is capable of this to the same degree.
Exactly, they are clones, it's a copy that's it, its DNA is exactly the same, that's all "clone" means. But it's not your DNA that makes you who you are, it's your individual experience that makes you who you are.

The Swarmlord appeared on Macragge early in the battle, just after the initial blows. What stress was the Hive Mind under then? What caused the Hive Mind to look at Marnius and go "OH MY GORD". Macragge would have been a huge pay off for the swarm and the Hive Mind sent the Swarmlord down early to ensure that the job was done. BTW, intelligence is something all synapse creatures have, it's just the Swarmlord has much more.
 

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Exactly, they are clones, it's a copy that's it, its DNA is exactly the same, that's all "clone" means. But it's not your DNA that makes you who you are, it's your individual experience that makes you who you are.
I never said otherwise. I just said that the Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord were all individual minds within the swarm. They can create new bodies at will using the resources of the fleet, but they are still each of their own mind. Meaning there is only one Swarmlord, and it transcends Hive Fleets rather than being bound to a single fleet as other tyrants appear to be.

The Swarmlord appeared on Macragge early in the battle, just after the initial blows. What stress was the Hive Mind under then? What caused the Hive Mind to look at Marnius and go "OH MY GORD". Macragge would have been a huge pay off for the swarm and the Hive Mind sent the Swarmlord down early to ensure that the job was done.
The Swarmlord appeared because Maccragge was the first true resistance this galaxy was able to offer. By this stage the Imperium had realized there was a genuine new threat and acted accordingly. The space strategy was sound, and the Swarmlord was not needed elsewhere at this point either. It made perfect sense for the Swarmlord to be at Maccragge, but in more recent invasions it has had to prioritize.

BTW, intelligence is something all synapse creatures have, it's just the Swarmlord has much more.
This is not necessarily true. While all synapse creatures are indeed capable of channeling the Hive Mind's will, there are varying degrees of intelligence and autonomy. Warriors for example have a weaker influence, hence why they operate in large broods. A tyrant is stronger, and the Swarmlord is stronger still.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I just said that the Hive Tyrants and the Swarmlord were all individual minds within the swarm. They can create new bodies at will using the resources of the fleet, but they are still each of their own mind. Meaning there is only one Swarmlord, and it transcends Hive Fleets rather than being bound to a single fleet as other tyrants appear to be.
And that's the point of contention, excuse me if I like a little science in my science fiction, of course 40k can be described Lord of the Rings with guns. The paragraph just means no matter how many times you kill it, they are just going to replace with one just like it. In the Swarm there is no such thing as individual consciousness, the Swarmlord is indistinguishable from any other Hive Tyrant, Old One Eye from any other Carnifex, Deathleaper from any other Lictor, etc.

"The majority of Tyranid organisms have no distinct minds as a human would understand it, having been created to perform a single task to the exclusion of all else." - Tyranid codex

The Swarmlord appeared because Maccragge was the first true resistance this galaxy was able to offer. By this stage the Imperium had realized there was a genuine new threat and acted accordingly. The space strategy was sound, and the Swarmlord was not needed elsewhere at this point either. It made perfect sense for the Swarmlord to be at Maccragge, but in more recent invasions it has had to prioritize.
That's not a stress response, that's the Hive Mind saying "ok, you, you, and you".
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
This is not necessarily true. While all synapse creatures are indeed capable of channeling the Hive Mind's will, there are varying degrees of intelligence and autonomy. Warriors for example have a weaker influence, hence why they operate in large broods. A tyrant is stronger, and the Swarmlord is stronger still.
Warriors can still be autonomous, Tyranid Prime. They hunt as a team, teamwork is a classic sign of an intelligent creature. There is a story of a Warboss that had a bad temper, the Warriors drove the Hormaguants up and pull them back until the Warboss loaded all his Boyz on Trukz to chase the Warriors, them Venomthropes and Lictors assassinated the Warboss. That was the work of Warriors showing that they are still vastly intelligent.
 

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And that's the point of contention, excuse me if I like a little science in my science fiction, of course 40k can be described Lord of the Rings with guns. The paragraph just means no matter how many times you kill it, they are just going to replace with one just like it. In the Swarm there is no such thing as individual consciousness, the Swarmlord is indistinguishable from any other Hive Tyrant, Old One Eye from any other Carnifex, Deathleaper from any other Lictor, etc.

"The majority of Tyranid organisms have no distinct minds as a human would understand it, having been created to perform a single task to the exclusion of all else." - Tyranid codex
This is codex generalization, and you have overlooked use of the word majority there.

Warriors can still be autonomous, Tyranid Prime. They hunt as a team, teamwork is a classic sign of an intelligent creature. There is a story of a Warboss that had a bad temper, the Warriors drove the Hormaguants up and pull them back until the Warboss loaded all his Boyz on Trukz to chase the Warriors, them Venomthropes and Lictors assassinated the Warboss. That was the work of Warriors showing that they are still vastly intelligent.
This does not necessarily mean a demonstration of intelligence. It could simply be warriors accessing memories of past encounters of a similar nature and applying it to the present. Remember that autonomy aside, all synapse creatures do have access to the Hive Mind's collective knowledge. This doesn't really prove one way or the other.
 
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