Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Does it strike anyone as odd how the chaos gods are completely predictable? Nurgle gives diseases, Khorne hits you with an axe, Slanesh corrupts you and Tzeench mutates you. They never do anything outside their pattern. Even chaos undivided doesn't switch between plans of the four gods it just fights for what they have in common. Are they just called chaos because they don't agree with the eldar or imperium on what 'order' is? (Eldar and the imperium being the ones who know them as 'chaos')
 

·
Heresy Online's Pet Furby
Joined
·
8,723 Posts
In one of Dan Abnett's novels there is a reference to "chaos" planets being not too dissimilar to Imperial ones :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
Chaos is not just about the four gods. Chaos is what happens if they win. Chaos is the warp. You might think they are predictable in their pattern, but they are chaotic inside this pattern. moreover they have no intelligible plan for mortals, bare one: to bring the warp realm into reality. then i guess we could learn the true meaning of chaos!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
638 Posts
I've always thought of it in relation to the Materium, which has laws of physics and consistent patters of how time and matter relate to each other... until a writer needs a new plot tool, of course. I consider the Necrons to be one of the ultimate avatars of 'law', in the Michael Moorcock sense of law and chaos, in that they're immutable and follow these strictures even when not in their own best interest... possibly driven by their absolute lack of connection to the warp.

The Warp (powers), on the other hand, bends and turns back on itself in both form and function, and time and space... being bent to the will of whatever being has the greatest power to do so.

Also, keep in mind that the concepts of law and chaos were not meant to be mutually exclusive, but more of the yin and yang, constantly blending into each other despite their opposition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,270 Posts
In all honesty they are labelled as Choas because of the negative conotation that the term brings to the agents of "Choas." Choas is what they use to define the dangerous, unknown, mysterious, and deadly enemy that wishes death upon the Imperium and all of Mankind. Choas is what happens when evil takes iover and runs the show.....in essence.
 

·
Herald of The Warp
Joined
·
2,752 Posts
In all honesty they are labelled as Choas because of the negative conotation that the term brings to the agents of "Choas." Choas is what they use to define the dangerous, unknown, mysterious, and deadly enemy that wishes death upon the Imperium and all of Mankind. Choas is what happens when evil takes iover and runs the show.....in essence.
Normally I'm not one pointing out spelling mistakes, but it is VERY impressive how you have spelled Chaos wrong in every single instance in that post :grin:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
Choas is stronger than your palsy "chaos"!! Convert now to choas!!! :p
 

·
Heresy Online's Pet Furby
Joined
·
8,723 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
This my friend, is pure Chaos! Or Choas...
Also, i was thinking about the OP...how comes that Tzeentch follows a pattern...or nurgle or khorne or slaanesh...they seek something peculiar but in a totally unpredictable way. There is nothing a slaaneshi would not do to reach a new peak of pleasure or self satisfaction. khorne follower will rampage everywhere, maiming and killing and inspiring terrible act of death, while nurgle will just spread wanton corruption and decay...tzeentch..let him alone, he is headache causing :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,277 Posts
I would hazard a guess that the real reason chaos seems so ordered is the whole chaos thing was probably just a work around to include devil,satanism,and other worldly horror in the game without simply coping other games or preexisting trademarked pieces of fiction. Not to mention it probably gives them a certain level of separation from religious myths and icons.

This is the most reasonable explanation I can think of why GW introduced something that is supposed to represent entropy and disorder in its most pure form and simply have it behave like every other slavering horde of devils.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,212 Posts
The followers of Chaos are often not particularly chaotic that's true. They often start pretty chaotic though. Chaos cults come in a huge variety of forms, everything from death cults to student groups, with an equally huge variety in mandate. The only thing they all share is that they are revolutionary, they are opposed to and opposed by the current order of their environment. Cults start off random and eventually mature into something more structured (or die off).


But there is a difference between Chaos and it's followers. Chaos isn't the Traitor Legions or the Lost and the Damned, it isn't even really the daemons. Chaos is the corrupting touch of the Gods, and while the end goal is always the same there are many paths that lead to that spot and many different starting points. People fall to Khrone through love of violence or through anger, a desire for revenge or power and through a miriad of other ways. Maybe they were a soldier who got a bit too caught up in the thrill of combat; maybe they were a policemen who got a bit too pissed with the scum he had to deal with daily; maybe they were just an office worker fed up with constantly being picked on by their boss. There's no real pattern there, no way of predicting who will be exposed or whether they'll turn.

That's what truly makes Chaos chaotic, anyone at anytime is susceptible. Anyone, anywhere can turn. There are no front lines in the battle against Chaos, no armies drawn up to fight, no tactics, no safe ground and no final victories.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,976 Posts
I think it is mostly termed Chaos because it is the anathema of everything mortals normally strive for as a society. Instead of laws, boundaries and protection, it offers the chance to break all limits and become completely free. Or at least live under the illusion of such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,353 Posts
I think it is mostly termed Chaos because it is the anathema of everything mortals normally strive for as a society. Instead of laws, boundaries and protection, it offers the chance to break all limits and become completely free. Or at least live under the illusion of such.
You mearly trade a religious tyrant that will shoot you for a perceived slight for a religious madman that will shoot you for shits and giggles
 

·
Thordis
Joined
·
2,438 Posts
You mearly trade a religious tyrant that will shoot you for a perceived slight for a religious madman that will shoot you for shits and giggles
or mutilate your body for shits and giggles, or sacrifice you to summon deamons for shits and giggles, ETC.
I think Chaos represents the anarchist side of humanity more then anything
 

·
Critique for da CriticGod
Joined
·
3,351 Posts
I think there is a lot more to this discussion.

First, Chaos as it is described in the warhammer universe is an absolute outgrowth of Michael Moorecock's Elric stories. The dukes of hell are clear templates for the chaos gods. Especially if you consider the process Elric goes through to sell his soul to Arioch and hire his sword stormbringer has ours own malign intelligence and feeds on the souls of its victims. Proto-type daemon sword anyone?

The chaos gods might seem orderly because they each represent a finite or constant concept, but they embody this essence completely. And there are two ways to think about ultimate chaos. Either it is conceived of as entropy, where everything is in a uniform state of disorder OR it can be thought of as the ongoing unpredictable turbulence created by motive powers with organizing principles interacting in inconsistent ways.

Think of a pebble dropped in a pond and the rings it makes. Now think of a single outboard motor in the same pond creating splashes and choppy water. Now think of 4 motors in the pond all running at different speeds and constant changing direction. Sometimes they run together sometimes against one another. But the splashes and ripples from each one interact destructively with the ripples from one another.

That's more of how I think about chaos. The primal unreasoning motivation of the gods creates activity and motion, but it is always in flux. Sometimes they work together sometimes they work at cross purposes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,694 Posts
I think that this discussion needs some help (although @Kreuger speaks like an Apostate Preacher. Have you fought on Vraks??)
Hereby I summon the Bringer of Light, the Magnificent, the Perfect! I SUMMON THEE, OH GREAT @Lux !!!!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
10,976 Posts
You mearly trade a religious tyrant that will shoot you for a perceived slight for a religious madman that will shoot you for shits and giggles
Well true, currently Chaos represents the extremes of human impulse, in that there is near complete freedom, but no security like you would get by submitting to a society's laws.

In a time before the four powers grew to be so influential, it is possible that these changes were not so extreme.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
Chaos in general is normally Chaotic due to the lack of order.
So as a Space Marine Chapter you will normally have the best guys become leaders because they are brave, strong, tactical or whatever and they will excel in what they do and get respect from the lesser marines.
Chaos Marine Chapters can have the same deal but can also have the "I sucked up to god so he turned everyone who would have been better than me in to spawn as they got to cocky." or "This guy was clearly a better general and would have won us a load of battles and stuff, BUT I decided I wanted a turn at leading so I imbedded a force sword in his arse when he was in the shower and took over." or "We got tired of taking shit from this guy who was lording it over us, so 5-6 of us got together and killed him as a group then fought over who would replace him leaving just me and that guy."
But can also range on the random nature of the acts of the chaos gods. You are fighting a battle and suddenly a whale and a flower pot start falling out of the sky to the earth. No one knows why they are, they just are.
Or a Butterfly lands on a flower that has been touched by Chaos and becomes Mothra!

Sure the aspects of each of the gods are general straight forward, but they all have their own quirks and overlapping bits as well.
Tzeentch has been said (in liberchaotica) to be able to expand the eye of terror / realm of chaos at his own whim. He currently doesn't though because the most powerful god in the warp at the moment is Khorne... so in essence Khorne ends up winning when all the souls are divided out. But even when Tzeentch is the more powerful one he still doesn't do it. Why doesn't he... Because he is playing the REALLY long game where he like a gambler thinks he can take a small loss to make a huge gain.

Nurgle is known as the God of Decay and the God of Rot and Plague and all sorts of other ones. But he is also the God of Laugher and the Great Father who cares for his children. The Pox is said to be his gift to protect them against harm, and they enjoy picking at their scabs...

As said it is all a bit weird and the liber chaotica books were good reads when they came out probably about 10 years ago though heavily WFB based.
 

·
Critique for da CriticGod
Joined
·
3,351 Posts
Chaos in general is normally Chaotic due to the lack of order.
Really? Was that necessary?

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much all your points. =)
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top