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Discussion Starter #1
I am slowly working my way through the 52 :)shok:) Chaos units I identified as being the ones I wanted to see available. In the process, I would split them, were I the one in charge, into two Codexes, Renegades, and Traitors.

I think it's pretty clear where that delineation lies, with Alpha legion and potentially Word Bearers being represented in the Renegades book, along with more recent converts to the Dark Powers. The Rebel Guard go here too, while the Legions book would be for the Traitors from the Heresy and such.

I should note that I included Transports (Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, Land Raider and Dreadclaw Assault Pod) within those 52 (though as I type I realise Chimeras were forgotten...) so it's not going to be all-slog for those dedicated individuals who choose to take this journey with me.

Anyway, this is the first of the 'Legions' rulesets...Khorne Berzerkers. We all know who they are and what they're about, so I'm just going straight onto stats.

Berzerker Cult - 100 points.
Berzerker: WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv3+
Skull Champion: WS5 BS4 S5 T4 W1 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+

Unit Composition: 5 Khorne Berzerkers.

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frag and Krak, Power Armour

Special Rules: Fearless, Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne (included in profile), Cult Troops, Favour of Khorne, For We Are Many*

Dedicated Transport: Rhino, Dreadclaw Assault Pod, Chaos Land Raider [At the moment, these are provisionally 35, 50, and 215 points, with capacities of 10, 12 and 20 respectively. The Rhino is the only one NOT an Assault Vehicle.]

Options: Add up to 19 Berzerkers @ 20 points per model.
Any Models in the unit may replace their CCW with a Chainaxe @ 2pts per model.

Two models in every 4 may have one of the following to replace BP/CCW:
Power [email protected] ; Plasma [email protected] ; Hand [email protected]

One model may be upgraded to a Skull Champion @ 16 points.

A Skull Champion may replace his BP/CCW with any of the following:
Power [email protected] ; Power [email protected] ; Plasma [email protected] ; Hand [email protected]FREE ; Lightning Claw (pair)@5(10)pts ; Infernus [email protected] ; [email protected]

He may be equipped with Melta [email protected]


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Important stuff:
Chainaxe - Close Combat Weapon that gives the model Rending Attacks.
Hand Flamer/Infernus Pistol - see Codex: Blood Angels
Chainglaive - Two-handed Close Combat Weapon that doubles the user's S, ignores Armour Saves, and grants an extra dice of Penetration vs Vehicles.**
Favour of Khorne - Any Psychic Power directly targeting the unit (regardless of source or effect) is negated upon the d6 roll of 4+.
Cult Troops - If the unit size is exactly equal to the Sacred Number, a Champion may be upgraded for free instead of the usual points cost.

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* - For now, suffice it to say this is a Special Rule that 'unlocks' with another one...it has no effect on the unit per se.

** - Is this too much? I am LOOKING for a real CC beefcake here, and it needs to compete with LC(pair) as an option, but Rending over ignores saves is possible, but I don't like it, or dropping either Double Dice or Double S is very possible. Double S makes them an answer to TWC at least, and also bones Dreadnoughts.

Oh, and the odd unit size is because I will have all Cult Troops bar TSons go to 3xSacred Number.
 

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The Chain Glaive needs a price increase from the looks of it- all the advantages of a chain fist with the only disadvantage being you can't get +1 attack using a Pistol/CCW, all for only 5pts more than a powerfist?

I do think that changing it to Rending is the way forwards here, or (just throwing ideas out as they come to me) alter it so that it hits at Str.7 (Furious Charge doesn't affect it etc) but with a -1 Intitiative because of it's unwieldy size.

That way it's faster than a Chain Fist/Power Fist but not quite as devastating, a sort of bridge gap between Power Weapons and Power Fists if you will.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That was kinda the aim - a bridging weapon akin to Hand Flamers and Infernus Pistols that is unique to one faction - essentially, World Eaters Chaos Space Marines.

Thanks, for thoughts.
 

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Interesting ruleset.
The logic behind my 3 attacks base though, while it may seem excessive, makes perfect sense.
These guys have WS5, so obviously they are of veteran quality; veteran Marines have 2 attacks.
So, it makes sense for them to have 2 attacks base, plus 1 for Mark of Khorne, and then their 2CCW.

The inclusion of Infernus pistols and Hand Flamers works, I like it.

The lack of Rage, I do not like, at all.
Berzerkers are completely unrestrained in battle, they will run at the enemy regardless of the threat they face; the surgical procedures used to make them what they are ensure that.
So as I said, Berzerkers NEED Rage, they're quite frankly unfluffy if they don't have it.


And this gave me an interesting idea.
Not ALL Berzerkers are of the World Eaters chapter, and those are the 'real' Berzerkers.
So perhaps there could be two separate units, the real Berzerkers, and those produced by other chapters.
Those owned by other chapters would not have the Chainaxes (like the real ones should automatically), would not have Blessing of the Blood God (what it should be called, like in Daemons codex), would not have Cult Troops, and depending on what For We Are Many is, would not have that.
Oh, and would probably have 1 less attack and be cheaper obviously.

Those guys aren't as old or experienced, they don't have the REAL equipment that Berzerkers use, they're just modified Marines.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I see your points, and raise you this - the story of Kharn turning Traitor (on his Legion, on Skalathrax) clearly showed that only HE had quite that level of insane rage going on, the others were relatively calm.

I choose to follow THIS fluff, in lieu of the rest, for now. I may change my mind. :p
Attacks, I agree, but don't want the Skull Champ to seem overcosted...

As for two variant Zerk units?

I have 53 units to 'design', and while Rhino and Chimera are done, and Zerks and Beastmen posted, that leaves 44 1/2 to do! (I have Noise Marines half done, PMs, TSons, Cultists and Renegade Marines are finished...)
 

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It's actually a moot point in regards to 'pure' World Eater Berserkers anyway, as no such thing really exists- certainly not in large warbands, whilst only the Apothecaries from 2 Legions have perfected the Berserker surgeries (World Eaters and Black Legion) that doesn't mean that every Marine to have undergone the surgery was from either Legion.
 

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You don't want a ton of flamers. Oh, you're 4" away from my models, and have 3 flamers to use? Bring em on baby, I'll just remove them from charge range.

No offence, but the Glaive - what the fuck were you thinking? Doubling Strength hitting as a Power Weapon for 35pts with 6 S9 I5 Attacks on an assault?

That's stupid good. Init 1, don't ignore armour, rending, no 2D6 Penetration, no stack with basic weapon, and reduce to 10pts. That way it's not Instataken.



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Discussion Starter #10
Oops. I actually never intended the Chainglaive to Strike at Initiative.

Does that change opinions much? If it's I1?

lol

- Oh, and the 2d6 and Rending are both staying, no question. This is their only real answer to Dreadnoughts or other vehicles, barring getting lucky with Plasma Pistols.
 

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Not all units have to have an available counter ;) That's the fun in hard counters. I can see where you're coming from, though, not wanting to have an army looking like a pack of smarties but still looking effective.

Currently, a Berzerker Champion is capable of taking on an Ork Warboss and winning, thanks to being non targettable and higher Init.

The problem I see is their base 3 attacks. They may well be 10K years old, but for the sake of balance, a 123pt squad putting out 6 S9 Power Weapon Attacks and 20 S5 Rending Attacks, they are far too good. 3 Units of them in a land raider each can easily wipe out even Hammernators.



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Not all units have to have an available counter ;) That's the fun in hard counters. I can see where you're coming from, though, not wanting to have an army looking like a pack of smarties but still looking effective.

Currently, a Berzerker Champion is capable of taking on an Ork Warboss and winning, thanks to being non targettable and higher Init.

The problem I see is their base 3 attacks. They may well be 10K years old, but for the sake of balance, a 123pt squad putting out 6 S9 Power Weapon Attacks and 20 S5 Rending Attacks, they are far too good. 3 Units of them in a land raider each can easily wipe out even Hammernators.
You'd spew over my rules then :p
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77519

Fragile as usual Marines, but they have Rage, 3 attacks base (they're of veteran quality with Mark of Khorne included, with a Rending Chainaxe base.
All for, as it says in those rules, 25 points a model.


Frankly I think that TKE left Rage out of these guys is ridiculous.
Berzerkers have Rage, you can't even argue that they don't, because they very well DO.
Single most Rage-deserving unit in the game, they is.
Sure, makes them less the general army chassis that they are right now, but they shouldn't be that at all, they're melee specialists who physically cannot restrain themselves charging at the enemy.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
For me, a Berzerker Champ (and the others, Plague Champ, Noise Champ, regular Traitor Champ, Raptor Champ [but not Havoc or Rubric] ) should be akin to a mini-Captain...it's harking back to when Space Marines had Lieutenants.

Admittedly, a lot of my notions are predicated upon 2e...but I don't believe this is necessarily a bad thing. What unit should I post next? PMs? Noise Marines? Chaos Dreadnoughts? World Eaters HQ the 'Brother-Slaughterer'?

EDIT: Also, that 123pt unit in a Raider becomes 323 minimum, and 3 of those SHOULD thrash TH/SS. Three of those is most of a 1500 point army, and almost half a 2k. Put in an HQ for ~200 and 3 more Raider units for a 2k army of basically 6 Land Raiders. Sounds Chaos-y to me!
 

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Mathhammer Hammernators versus 123pt unit

Charging Zerkers - 6 S9 PW Attacks, hitting on a 3+ = 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, 2-3 Saves (1-2 Dead)

20 S5 Rending attacks, hitting on a 3+ = 13 hits, 8 wounds (2 rending) = (0-1 save from rending, 1-2 wounds from the rest)

Worst case averages, 2 dead, Best case scenario averages, 5 dead.

And Hammernators are about as tough as you can get (without adding in funkies like a Sang Priest)



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