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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hear a lot of people complain about the current CSM codex. I for one think its a very powerful list, gives you lots of variety, and allows you to fully customise your army.
Sure there will always be little niggly things, and theres certainly alot they could do when they update.

So what would you change about the CSM codex
 

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I think the obvious choice would be to bring back some of the main legions with different rules to govern them.

Obviously the Iron Warriors of old where slightly overpowered but something along those lines in a less abusive fashion would be wonderful.

Secondly the daemons need to go back in, probably offset by crapper weapons in comparison to regular marines. The greater daemons at least should be available.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
just to throw this out there.

what makes an army iron warriors? 4 heavy support? because thats effectively the difference. can't you just theme your army around ironwarriors by using choices that make sense like vindicators etc...
also ive always noticed no-one ever used combat units with ironwarriors when fluff wise they are supposed to be one of the most bloodthirsty and ferocious legions due to that once they have lain seige for months on end and then break through the defenses they will go mad with bloodlust.

the other thing is daemons are in the list, as are greater daemons. ;)
 

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Dude have you ever looked at the 3rd ed codex? I want tell any Chaos Space Marine Player who joined the game in 4th edition codex to find someone elses or buy the 3rd ed codex and look at it, I gaurantee you will take the codex to the bathroom and masturbate to it. I did. jk. but yea theres a ton of reason why people would complain about the new codex after playing with the 3rd edetion dex. the first thing i can think is legion specific rules. there was a rare occasion to met another list who ran a similar list as you. i know i played lots of sonic preds, sonic havocs and sonic troop choices. all the iron warrior stuff was amazing, 4 heavy support slots the only army that could field vindicators with damonic posession, infested hull, that was a F14 S12 B11, armor that could repair destroyed weapons, also iron warriors could field a basalisk as well , also Obliterators had assualt cannons and they were elite choices so you could field 9 oblits as elites take 4 heavy supports and a Massivly pimped out daemon prince with a 2+ armor save with opther cool stuff from the armory. but yea the new dex has factors that are good to it, like the ability to take daemon princes for cheap and being able to take 2, also things are cheaper and you can take more. but the codex lacks all the fluff the most amazing art work, the armory, the legion spec rules.
If you ask me the only thing the Chaos Codex is missing is the 3rd edition codex. if they just mixed the 3rd and fourth ed codex together and made stuff cheaper and allowed squadrons to heavies i would be happy, also give us the ability to take Chaos Daemons as allies. but yea pick up a copy of the original codex fall in love with an army and the dex, all the fluff and all the customising of the army you chose. then go and pick up a Chaos 4th ed codex and watch as your army just gets skull fucked because GW nurfed us hard in the eye socket.
 

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I hear a lot of people complain about the current CSM codex. I for one think its a very powerful list, gives you lots of variety, and allows you to fully customise your army.
Sure there will always be little niggly things, and theres certainly alot they could do when they update.
Chaos Marines were a powerful army in 4th edition mostly because many people didn't run Librarians or similar models with anti-psychic abilities which made Lash of Submission brutally hard to deal with especially since during that time transports were basically deathtraps.

As for having a lot of variety and allowing one to customize their army, how exactly do you arrive at this conclusion? I'd think that the majority of people would argue that it's the exact opposite. We have a book that's so poorly internally balanced that almost anyone can rattle off the few good units in the book without even having to think about it (that's Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Obliterators for those unaware). Taking anything that deviates from this short list of units weakens the army as a whole until you end up with some clusterfuck with nearly no focus or ability to do anything effectively on the tabletop.

Sure, one can freely mix units that worship various gods. You could do that in the 3.5 Edition Chaos Marine book too if you opted not to play one of the distinct Traitor Legions and ran an army General with the Mark of Chaos Undivided. What one can't do is play one of the Traitor Legions in an effective and satisfying manner due to the lack of Legion-specific army lists or special rules or anything else to make this possible. Games Workshop seems to be under the impression that people like Renegade Space Marines and want to play the Red Corsairs or some variation of them. The truth of the matter is that most players don't give a shit about Space Pirates (just look at how the Dark Eldar sell for proof :p) and want to have an army of the ultimate badasses that nearly tore the Imperium apart during the Heresy.

I could go on, but it's 6am and I'm yet to sleep... so yeah.
 

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Dude have you ever looked at the 3rd ed codex? I want tell any Chaos Space Marine Player who joined the game in 4th edition codex to find someone elses or buy the 3rd ed codex and look at it, I gaurantee you will take the codex to the bathroom and masturbate to it. I did.
Is that the one with the Daemonette on the centerfold?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.
 

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It's a bad joke unless you play an unfluffy army or Black Legion. (And, of course, the two are not incompatible.)

Say what you will about the Iron Warriors and their incredible rules, all I want is cultists and Alpha Legion rules.

Traitor marines need to be more powerful. They're meant to be veterans of 10,000 years of unholy war, not Joe Ultrasmurf, age 112.
 

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so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
QUOTE]

No I think its more about how the book has lots of units people want ot use but they are so overpriced for what they do its difficult to make a competitive list. I dont think anyone is denying you can make a powerful chaos army, its the fact that you cant make one for most of the 4 or 9 factions the codex is allegedly representing.

I guess it would be similar if GW dropped the black templar, dark angel, blood angel and spacewolf codexes and told their players they had to use the basic marine codex instead.
 

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so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.
all the stuff thats been posted and thats the only thing you retained from it. no man it was more about the experience of the 3rd ed codex. your army actually meant something. Katie is 100% correct about the custom things you could do to your army. and compared to the new dex i think the new one would win becasue my list is solid(plus im happy doom sirens are S5 ap3 and blast masters are now ap3 instead of 4). but the 3rd ed codex was better becasue I didnt Play Space Pirates i played Emperor's Children. that actually meant something in the last codex becasue their was items in the chaos army that only an EC player could obtain. in the new codex its Space Pirates and no matter how slaaneshi i dress my marines up to be they are just simply space pirates. Anyone can mix and match my list everyone can take noisemarines and slaanesh Daemon Princes with Lash. Oh and a big thing missing is Khrone Bezerkers dont have Chain axe special rules anymore. no more 2D6 on armor.
 

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so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.
Thats exactly the opposite to what I said. :crazy:

Infact I even stated that the old book was overpowered and needed to be less abusive.

To be honest though 40k in its current state is so shit and different to 4th comparing the two books is pretty pointless. I just think chaos should include proper daemons and have legion specific options.

The marines get 5 different books, why don't chaos have more than one or a book containing more than the obvious "default" choices as pointed out by katie.
 

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The Chaos Codex is just too narrow right now. I like the Thousand Sons but right now I'm not that bothered about picking up the Codex and building an army of them because They have 2 choices in the Book, arguably more if you choose Lord or Princes with the Mark. That's why I play Chaos Daemons, I get 1 choice for each god in each slot so I can play a Solely Tzeentch Army if I want to. It might not be good but I can.

They need to bring back the diversity and Demonic Rivalry etc. Kharn Leading your Thousand Sons might be effective but it's hardly correct. I'm not saying etc faction should have it's own book, but each faction should at least be able to field and army of that faction.

Aramoro
 

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The old rules made theme armies not just possible, but effective. You Have the gods number of models in your list? Free champion. Want to take a lot of Bezerkers? Have your army led by a Khornate General. Want to mix and match? then specialist troops stay elites. And sooooo many options for your lords! You literally built your lord from the ground up, even into a daemon prince if you wanted. You could give your squads a Mark, give them all sorts of cool veteran abilities, outfit them with wild abandon, upgrade your possessed with appropriate mutations, have access to some awesome daemon weapons, have characters which were more than simple beatsticks...

Were there problems with it? Yeah, the Iron Warriors being the stand out example, but there were other builds that lacked balance. The idea and foundation of how it worked though was brilliant, and why they changed that into such a bland codex....

The new codex is fine balance wise (leaving aside the Lash), and you can make different lists with it. However, it lacks character, it doesn't reward you for making a fluffy list, doesn't allow you all the little changes that could make your army unique and intricate. Hell, besides lash, all the Character options have no effects but the ability to kill the enemy!

Anyway... new codex is fine, but boring. That's all I have to say on it.
 

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I thought Katie and Yllib Enaz made good points. The codex that the CSM currently have is so frickin bland that if you don't stick to that short list that Katie put out then you are in for a bad match (most of the time). With all the specialization that GW has done with the Space Marines and how overpowered some of those factions have become you would think that Chaos would at least be able to break off into their separate gods. Also, personally I think the Daemon Prince has been sucker punched by this codex. It still has decent stats and it is pretty cheap but then I can't help but look at the Daemon codex where a Daemon Prince can cost from 80 to about 300 points b/c of the ridiculous amount of variety given to it. That's just me though.
 

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The things I miss most are the Vet skills and the Vehicle upgrades. Being able to really theme out a full army with the skills was awesome and having Parasitic Possession on your Predator just rocked. Rules wise, my Thousand Sons are actually more powerful with the current codex than they were with the old so long as you can get past the fact that there are no actual cult rules anymore. I know that this bothers some people but I am not one of them as I can paint the army in a particular scheme and that is good enough for me, I don't need specific rules to think I am playing the army I want.

That said however I would love to see the cults, and yes the named daemons, added back into the codex. Or even the ability to summon the units from Codex: Daemons. GW did drop the ball a bit with the current codex but it isn't the utter shit many make it out to be, just like the previous codex was certainly not as wonderful as many seem to think.
 

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so then basically its a complaint that it is no longer the most powerful army book?
i personally still think its very powerful, but the complaints all seem to be about the simple fact that before the book was ridiculously broken, and now its only slightly broken.
Oh, and I guess the fluff, ridiculous lack of choice, crappy design, and free attitude with a scalpel have nothing to do with it then. Do you only rate codices by their power?
 

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I agree with what has been said so far, so let me go on to something new. :p

If you've played Chaos both in DoW2 and on the tabletop the differences will make your heart ache. In DoW2, Cultists are dead important, especially if they're given a grenade launcher. Several of them can send Tac Marines home crying, or if the Cultists aren't upgraded, they can get into melee with them, blow themselves up and be an immense pain in the ass. And when Chaos Marines start to appear, shit hammers into the fan like theres no tomorrow. Tzeentchian Marines shoot everything to pieces and Khornate Marines can kill anything short of a Tier 3 CC-specialist (Nobz, Carnifex, Assault Terminators, etc) or a pimped out, higher lvl CC-specialist HQ (Chaos Lord, namely, but even that is not an easy job). Khornate Dreadnoughts WTFPWN almost everything in close combat, though Bright Lances and the like bring it down relatively quickly. Oh and lets not forget the Lord and the Sorcerer. The Lord is a killing machine, if hes lvl 10 with PoLC, MoK and the lvl1 armour (or lvl 2 if there are lots of big units) hes even worse than a Dreadnought because he won't lose HP AT FUCKING ALL. The Sorcerer is a very tactical troll, hopping around and throwing Doombolts that can maim lesser units (and even tougher guys as the Sorcerer lvls up), and even if he gets into CC he can put up a good fight.

Now, as any CSM player can tell, the tabletop is lacking all these. We have no Cultists, useless HQs (DPs aside, though Khornate DPs are worse than anything available), HURPADURP crazy Dreadnoughts, expensive and ineffective Rubric Marines (take 2 of these and you could take 3 units of Berzerkers instead); though our Zerkers are of course great but I wish there were other competitive troop choices in our Codex (and no, PMs are no way as good as Zerkers in terms of overall effectiveness, so no mono-Nurgle army for you).

I used to love CSM, I used to love 40K, but now all I want is to finish assembling the last 5 Raptor conversions and 5 Khornate Bikers (Mad Max FTW) and I'm done with them. Of course I'll paint and play them but I'm not planning on spending another penny on them until a decent Codex comes out. If I want to play with my friends I'll go to my LGS. If I want to play with my Chaos Space Marines I play DoW2. Because, as it had been said before, I want to play the heroes of the Horus Heresy and not the Coyote and Team Rocket style Space Pirates
 

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Katie has it. I hate the fact that I can't play a competitive list without have to be forced into one particular build.

Guard have serveral competitive builds each with their own flavour - (although mostly mech based) - Air Cav, Leafblower, ArCo. Marines, less so - but it resolves around Bikes, Vulkan or Pedo. Eldar - Jetseer, Water, or Wraithguard.

One build armies are now relegated to 3rd edition armies - Necrons, Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters and Dark Eldar - respectively, Destroyers, Mech Meltas, Waterbuild, and Lance Spam.

Yes, I understand that Tier 1 builds from the more powerful lists - r.e Leafblowers, and Jump pack Dreadnoughts from Blood Angels results in demolishing quite a lot of lists around. But the fact I can turn up with an army of my own design with my Marines, or Elysians (whether used as Air Cav, or IA Elysians), and still have a reasonable chance of surviving to the quarters or semi's.

I'm willing to bet that if you look at a cross section of the armies in the later stages of the tournament scene, there'll be about 5 different armies split over 24+ lists, of which between each equivalent, you'd be able to count the differences on one hand.

It's not just the exclusivity of the rules for the different legions - Marines (not the variant Codices, I mean the Vanillas) have the rules for Chapters, but they're about Chapter specific as a shit in the woods. IG, the same (not to mention you can take Alrahem, Chenkov, Creed, and Yarrick all in the same army). I mean, in Fantasy, people play Warriors of Chaos, even though they're built one of two ways now exclusively, and they've lost the rules and limitations of the Marks that Hordes used to have. However, they're very popular all the same - and that's due to the capabilities of Warhammer Magic Items and the different possibilities available.

I don't really know what it is about CSM, but it just doesn't Gel. There's nothing in it that really grabs my attention as a really nice unit (other than Defilers). All the others, at the minute, feel just like bad marines - which is exactly what Dark Eldar seemed to be - Bad Eldar in different colours, and neither are particularly popular. I had the same issue when they got rid of the Traits for marines.

Reintroducing the capabilities of customizing your Daemon Prince, and perhaps tieing that to your army build would be amazing.

For example giving your Chaos Lord Daemonic Flight would allow Raptors to become Core. Giving your Lord a Mark of Khorne makes Berserkers Core, while the rest stay as Elites. Just that itself would make them more exciting.

@ Khorothis - I wouldn't ever, ever, ever. EVER use DoW, let alone DoW2 in an argument about the Table Top. I'm not too fussed if I ever see Cultists in a list yet.



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@Vaz

Sure the gameplay is completely different for both games, but that wasn't the point. What I meant is that there is a lot of potential in the CSM Codex but the units there just lack the oomph (either stats or rules) that would make them useful. Also, if I could take Cultists I so fucking would, thats one of the things that differentiates CSM from SM: we have a couple badass Marines who herd meatshields in front of them so they don't get killed unnecessarily, while SM just zerg rush you with Terminators and Movie Marines. Oh and their newest Chapter Codex, of course.
 
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