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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone.

I never really venture into this neck of the woods as I don't play Warhammer (although I do enjoy reading the battle reports and like the armies).

But I was just wondering, what are the major differences between Chaos in Warhammer and 40k.

Obviously there will be similarities, but I'm pretty sure I remember that in Warhammer, Slaanesh has always existed rather than being born with the fall of a race, as in 40k.

Plus, is there any useful articles or books on Warhammer Chaos, or would it just be a case of searching for White Dwarf extracts?

Also, are there any cool stories involving Chaos you particularly enjoy? Even short ones?

Finally, does anyone know of a story where Fateweaver leads an assault on the Lizardmen in Lustria, as I remember reading it somewhere and it was pretty epic?

I'll gladly through some Rep the way of anyone who takes the time to maybe explain a few of the differences, or generally info with me.
 

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I have tried to think of some differences; however, most of them are trivial apart from names. For instance, the Old Ones used the Realm of Chaos for fast travel, chaos assaults of the Empire are usually small warbands but occasionally they gather together into a massive crusade.

The Liber Chaotica is an excellent source if you can locate a copy.

My two favourite stories are probably Wulfrik (a very sympathetic portrayal of the Northman mindset) and Tamurkhan (a massive chaos invasion of the Empire)

Fateweaver's attack on Xauhtek is on pages 14-15 of Army Book: Daemons of Chaos.
 

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Angryman
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I second the use of liber chaotica as a source of info on this one. Although I think it still implies the link between the 40k and fantasy universes. Have a read and see what you think.
 

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Honestly, in my own view, I view Warhammer Fantasy as a planet within the 40k universe. I base this off of the Lizardman fluff of the Old Ones arriving on silver ships. aka. Space ships.
 

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Well originally yes they were linked, the Slaan existed in both settings and the Realms of Darkness books contained background and rules for both fantasy and 40k in the same book.

Now however they are entirely separate. The hints in Liber Chaotica were just the a few nods in the origins of the fluff, GW's not saying the universes are the same.

Just beacsue the Old Ones arrived to the Old World by space ship doesn't mean they came from 40k. Fantasy could have it's own extraterrestrial races, more advanced than those of the Old World.

As per the OP though in terms of differences there aren't much. Slaanesh has always been around as you said (though the elves still developed pleasure cults like the eldar) you also have your periodic invasions (ala Black Crusades). Magic still uses the raw essence of Chaos just like psychers and the warp, though magic can accumulate and solidify as warpstone.

Northmen aren't inherently evil, they just worship the chaos Gods, often not fully understanding what exactly they are (or knowing their true names). Chaos Warriors are your chaos space marines, stronger than normal mortals and permanently encased in powerful armour.

Liber Chaotica (there's 4 of then, one for each god) is a great source. So are white dwarf articles on the various northern tribes.
 

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The biggest difference is the followers the CSM destroy for pure revenge or just for the joy of watching worlds burn, and great space smoors.

The warriors of chaos, destroy to please their gods and/or because they wish to gain something, whether it's respect, land, knowledge, pleasure, or money.
 

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Well That Was Unexpected
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Discussion Starter #7
Some great responses guys I really appreciate it.

Is there a central Chaos badguy like Abaddon? Someone who unites all strands of chaos in order to assault the Empire?

Plus is there any characters who's fluff you particularly enjoy?


I've been reading the Chaos Daemons Warhammer book, and despite alot of cross-over's I actually think the Chaos Daemon fluff is more elaborate in the Warhammer codice rather than the 40k.

It feels like they are much more part of the Warhammer universe, (because there are permanent rifts on the world?) whereas in 40k its kind of random attacks and a "we couldn't care less about this universe we just want to have a bit of fun" type attitude.


Honestly, in my own view, I view Warhammer Fantasy as a planet within the 40k universe. I base this off of the Lizardman fluff of the Old Ones arriving on silver ships. aka. Space ships.
I think that's a really cool idea.
 

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There's the Everchosen, a great champion who arises every few centuries who forges a mighty army and reaps destruction. The current Everchosen is Archon, though as his incursion has failed (yet he still lives) his status and level of favour with the God's is unknown. Avasar Kul was the last Everchosen, he was defeated by Magnus the Pious in a conflict that was known as the Great War against chaos. This is also when the Empires colleges of magic were founded as the humans were taught magic by Teclis to defend themselves against Chaos.

The very first war against Chaos occurred when the Old Ones were killed and the Polar Gates collapses letting magic and chaos flood into the world. A great army of daemons came with it, which the elves stood against lead by Aneraion who wielded the sword of Khaine. Eventually they banished the daemons by sealing away most of the magic present in the world and binding the daemons to the chaos wastes.

Also Fantasy has a kind of Eye of Terror esque realm- The Chaos Wastes. This is an area in the very north of the world, where the Polar Gates once stood that now bridges the space between the material world and the Realm of Chaos . Here daemons may wander and chaos warbands prowl looking for the favour of their gods. When chaos is ascendant, the winds of magic blow strong and great invasions are underway this area actually expands, swallowing up more of the world.

I actually really enjoyed the portrayal of Chaos warriors and northern tribesman in the Brettonian books by Anthony Renalds. Basically this horde of northern tribesmen ravaged Brettonia. It was interesting because their warlord actually felt believable as a character and had more motavation than 'ooh i'm evil i'm going to ravage some lands'. They were actual people who happened to live a brutal way of life and who worshipped the Chaos Gods. Their armies were lethally effective and truly terrifying, as Chaos should be.
 

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The biggest difference with Chaos between the settings is scale and level of threat. In 40k, the Imperium is so massive that, despite what might be implied, Abbadon's black crusades aren't that dangerous to the Imperium as a whole. Yes, if Cadia falls, then Chaos will have a foothold for launching further attacks via a major, stable Warp path, and that's about it. Terra wasn't almost overrun, the Emperor wasn't almost cast down from the golden throne, nothing. In 40k, the Imperium can literally just keep throwing bodies at a problem until the attacker chokes.

In Fantasy, Chaos is a very real military threat to the Empire's very existence. The various marauder and Norsemen tribes actually outnumber the Empire by a good margin (don't have my Liber copies on the ship right now) and the only thing saving them is the fact that the tribes are fractured and divided. In 40k terms, it's how they describe Orks as being able to sweep the entire galaxy if they ever banded together. This is what make the Everchosen such a big deal - he's the Chaos Gods personal champion who can unite all the tribes and various factions together under one banner.

For a comparison of scale, imagine Abbadon launching a black crusade against the Sabbat worlds with an army big enough to attack every one of them. At once. And roll over the defenders in a matter of hours. Not months, years, or a decade. Hours. And then they keep going to the next set of worlds while driving straight towards Terra.

The Everchosen's invasions wipe out entire sections of the Empire. The only way the Empire survives is a) with the help of allies, usually Kislev, and also Dwarves and Elves, and b) by killing the Everchosen and letting the Chaos horde fight amongst itself.

On the small scale, it's the same. A chaos warrior is Fantasy's version of a space marine, except there are no good guys. Like if all the legions turned to Chaos and left only the Imperial guard to fight for the Emperor. So not only do they (possibly) out number you, they're also unstoppable killing machines.

Besides scale, the other major difference is motivation. The Chaos hordes don't attack the Empire because they're looking for revenge (some do, with Archon being a good example) they do it because it's a way to please their Gods and gain honor. They're not motivated by hatred as much as arrogance, seeing the Southmen as weak and soft. War is what they're born and bred for, they fight amongst themselves constantly and are always looking for someone else to fight and raid.

The characters are much better than most of the 40k ones. You have Galrauch, the 2-headed Chaos dragon that was originally a good dragon helping the High Elves until a Lord of Change possessed him. Sigvald, Slaanesh's spoiled little champion who's followers surround him with mirrored shields so he can watch himself fight. Aekold Helbrass, a Tzeentch champion who also creates life wherever he walks. Tons more if you can get some of the older books or the Liber Chaotica.
 

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I disagree that they are the biggest threat. Time and time again they attack united under the Everchosen, yet they are cast back again and again. I would saw that they are actually very similar. In both they are the one that are thought to be the greatest threat to the established Order. That being the Imperium, or Empire.

As for who is the biggest threat in Fantasy it would be Skaven. It is in the lore of Fantasy that if they were to unite then the world would not be able to stop them. Just like 40k Orks.
 

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That might be true of WoC, but its daemons that are the real power of chaos in WFB. WoC and Skaven are just by-products of chaos... daemons are the real thing. If you want to know just how powerful then read the Defense of Itza in the lizardmen book: Kroak splits opens the land, floods rivers and generally lays waste to everything anywhere near him, killing tens of thousands of daemons.... and yet still they come. Currently its only the HE's portal sucking magic/chaos from the world that stops the daemons from invading on mass and killing everything...
 

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I disagree that they are the biggest threat. Time and time again they attack united under the Everchosen, yet they are cast back again and again. I would saw that they are actually very similar. In both they are the one that are thought to be the greatest threat to the established Order. That being the Imperium, or Empire.

As for who is the biggest threat in Fantasy it would be Skaven. It is in the lore of Fantasy that if they were to unite then the world would not be able to stop them. Just like 40k Orks.
I think the whole united they over run the world applies to a lot of races. Orks, Ogres, beasmen, chaos worshipers, and of course skaven.
Especially if all of the VC unite and elect a single leader the empire and all life is screwed 5 ways to Sunday.
 

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I do believe it is kind of odd when we talk of the chaos uniting. Chaos =/= order, right?

But semantics aside, the crucial point of divergence I see between 40k CSM and WoC in fantasy is that the Warriors of Chaos were never "good" to begin with like the traitor legions, there was no heresy, they betrayed noone, nor were they tricked into betrayal. They kill and pillage because it is in their twisted sense of morality to do so. And it is for that reason that I enjoy their fluff so much more.
 
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