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God bless you ignore function :wink:
One last bit to add to the argument before I proceed to drop it: We should also probably not assume he will only be fighting Space Marines, since the whole point of this campaign he's playing this army in is to get the players in it to try armies they've never used. If they're like most warhammer player communities then odds are most of them play Space Marines of some kind, which would mean that for these games they CAN'T.

Of course, for that specific reason, among my group of friends we only have one person with Space Wolves and me with Chaos Marines, and nobody else even considers Marines of any kind just so they can be different. But anyway....

Here's some of my list ideas.

500:
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Gift of Chaos)
Chaos Marines x5 (Mark of Tzeentch, Flamers x2, Rhino)
Chaos Marines x5 (Mark of Tzeentch, Flamers x2, Rhino)

Total: 500

I'll work in Thousand Sons at higher points, but I just don't see a good way to get them in there at 500. And while I said before that I'd use GoC at higher point costs, someone brilliant on here (forgot who, don't feel like wading through all the arguing) pointed out that the ability to create more guys would probably be utterly devastating in a low point game. If possible, I would fire one Gift at a guy that's particularly scary for some reason, and one at the lowest T enemy in range to try and make some spawn.

You could exchange the two Flamers for a single Meltagun if you want, but at low points I'm guessing the Prince will be enough to deal with whatever vehicles you come across. And if that doesn't work you can always ram them, lol

750:
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino [TL Bolter])
Chaos Marines x9 (Mark of Tzeentch, Meltaguns x2, Rhino [TL Bolter])

Total: 749

If you want you could exchange Bolt of Change for Warptime on the Prince, since the point cost is exactly the same. I personally would go with Bolt because A) It exploits the benefit of Mark of Tzeentch that allows for multiple psychic powers in a turn, since an MC can shoot two ranged weapons, B) It gives you something to do while you're making your way up to the enemy, and C) It's more Tzeentchy. (IMPORTANT NOTE: The 1K Sons Sorcerer CAN'T do this with Bolt, but could with any powers that don't count as shooting!)

Normally for Rhino weapons I say havocs or nothing, but I couldn't find any better place to spend 10 points. If you want to have fewer points invested in your Prince, you could swap Gift of Chaos for Doombolt, then swap the TL Bolters for Havoc Launchers.

1000:
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Thousand Sons x9 (Doombolt, Meltabombs, Rhino)
Thousand Sons x9 (Doombolt, Meltabombs, Rhino)

Total: 998

OR

1000:
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino)
Chaos Marines x9 (Mark of Tzeentch, Missile Launcher)

Total: 998

I wasn't sure if you would want more Troops at this point or another Prince. If you really want those vanilla marines to be mobile you could drop Gift, pick cheaper powers for the Sorcerers, swap the Missile Launcher and give them a Rhino if you really want to on the second one, though personally I'd just sit them on a home objective.

Then again, personally I'd go with the top list anyway. By this point your enemies have probably learned to fear your Prince and will have the points to invest in things to take him down, so having two should help there. That and more bolts = more Tzeentchy :D

1250:
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino)
Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Havoc Launcher)
Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Havoc Launcher)

Total: 1248

OR

1250:
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Daemon Prince (Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Gift of Chaos)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino)
Thousand Sons x9 (Bolt of Change, Rhino)
Chaos Marines x9 (Mark of Tzeentch, Meltaguns x2, Rhino)

Total: 1248

Again, wasn't sure how important having more Troops was to you.

I was VERY tempted to throw in Obliterators instead of those Preds, but they don't really fit Thousand Sons fluff that well. They hate mutation, after all, and the only way to get something more mutated than an Obliterator is Possessed. Plus, it might just be my horrible luck, but for me personally my Obliterators and Terminators ALWAYS die in a single shooting phase.

Anyway, hope this helped.

There. Done editting. I hope.
 

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The only thing I would say is 9 csm squads cant have two special weapons in them! Plus I think more should be made of the nilla cc potential, throw a PF in the squad! But I like where the lists are going! I think using nilla marines with the MoT is the best bet with t-sons as support units!
 

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When they come to write the next edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, and Websters for that matter, your name, LordWaffles, is going to be the definition of arrogance.
The definition will be "Those who accepted any challenge, no matter the odds, may earn this prestigious title"


Besides, I'm god-damned awesome.
 

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The definition will be "Those who accepted any challenge, no matter the odds, may earn this prestigious title" Besides, I'm god-damned awesome.
i appreciate that i no longer have to take you seriously.

God bless you ignore function :wink:
ditto.

don't let what any one has said about your list discourage you from your idea. i know for a fact non-Lash builds win games because i've seen different players win with different builds at different stores. and yeah, those builds have won tourneys.

the idea that there is only one perfect build for CSM (or any army in 40K really) is stupid, and certainly not true. mathhammer and theoryhammer be damned, i believe what i've seen more.

good hunting.
 

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I'm just having fun as well, I enjoy a good argument. One could easily say that this entire discussion is valid or invalid, however neither equate truth. I would like to see where lord waffles will prove that every unit will have a cover save 100% of the time in 100% of world wide games played. They again, it would depend on how he defined unit, cover, etc. Could one say that 50% of my squad if covered by the other 50% if I played them is a solid block? I mean you can't see at least 50% of my units in the squad with TLOS because the first people in line obviously block LOS to the ones behind them. -add in sarcastic comment here- That must be how he explains 100% of units have 100% cover, but then what about MC's and vehicles? they aren't in squdrons all the time so how do they benefit from this same measure...


Either way MoT armies can be competitive such as the one IntereoVivo just posted above. I've seen others slightly different, but that list smashes faces quite well.
 

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Whoops! I always run my CSMs in 10s so often that I keep forgetting about that. Aw well, minor adjustment.

The only problem is getting a champion, and then a pfist in it, is 40 points. I kept trying but I couldn't find anything I wanted to take the points out of.


EDIT:

I know I said I was done arguing, but I just have to say this....

"Those who accepted any challenge, no matter the odds"? From the person arguing that you have to mathhammer through the odds or you suck? I smell a bit of hypocrisy.

Okay then, how about this for a challenge... at your next tournament, play CSM, but do not take a single lash or warptime prince, plague marine, berserker, chosen or obliterator. If you want to prove that you're not just full of it and actually have skill beyond the ability to use a calculator, see how you do with what you consider crap.
 

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I hope to God your not asking me to NOT run Berserkers? :laugh:

That would just be a pointless request :laugh:
 

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actually with my thousand sons i find its best to use units you wouldn't nrmally think of. for a 1000 point game i rock the following:

Chaos Sorcerer - mark of tzeentch, warptime, winds - 185

9 thousand sons- winds -274
rhino- havoc Launcher - 50

9 thousand sons - doom bolt - 254
rhino - havoc launcher - 50

Predator - twin linked lascannon, lascannon sponsons, deamonic possession - 185

this was my last tourney army , well the one before the doubles tourney where i took nids, and i came in 2nd due to a tactical mistake, not a fault of the army. i walked away with 2 massacre's and a major victory instead of a massacre because i forgot to finish off a one man unit in KP.
 

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I'm just having fun as well, I enjoy a good argument. One could easily say that this entire discussion is valid or invalid, however neither equate truth. I would like to see where lord waffles will prove that every unit will have a cover save 100% of the time in 100% of world wide games played.
If you can't physically obscure a unit of infantry, you either just deep striked, played a gamble that failed, or are just bad. Period. Seeing that I can always manage to get my troops into cover, I now challenge you to do the same.

Instead of rallying cries of "HAX" why not try to accomplish that which I put forward. I tried the tson armies when they were new, and knew them to be false hopes, now instead of hearsay, why not try my way before invalidating it the way I tried yours so long ago?

but then what about MC's and vehicles? they aren't in squdrons all the time so how do they benefit from this same measure...
It's all about sizing up the field and running duplicate units of the same height. DPs can draw cover from rhino chassis, obliterators(if posed right) and larger tanks(raiders). Vehicles do the same thing, vindicators can get cover from advancing rhinos, predators can shoot the turret over the rhinos while gaining cover, and land raiders can obscure each other if you have three and one's in the lead.

It'd be more decisive with pictures, true, but you get my point.

Either way MoT armies can be competitive such as the one IntereoVivo just posted above. I've seen others slightly different, but that list smashes faces quite well.
The only face smashing I've seen by Tson armies is when they smash their own face into the table, repeatedly.

EDIT:

I know I said I was done arguing, but I just have to say this....

"Those who accepted any challenge, no matter the odds"? From the person arguing that you have to mathhammer through the odds or you suck? I smell a bit of hypocrisy.
Before you go on to quote supposed hypocrisy, you should make note not to do it yourself(IE: Running back into an argument for last minute mud slinging)

Second, it's a quote from a same-strength codex(Black Templar) it lacks the lash, oblits, plagues, and chosen. Everything is relied on either infantry or land raiders, so it forces you to find cover or die. By playing a statistically weaker army, I find my skill at the game is much more improved by tournament time. Conversely I ditch all the mathematically weaker armies at tourny time so I can rock face.(Fun for fun competitive for competitive).

The quote represents the only usable special rule the codex uses. I find it paramount to this discussion, hence why I used it. By not using the "AACNMTO" you become a better player by being forced to fight for every inch, but at tournament time you pick up a good list with that rule in play and rock face.

In short, play the worse codexes during the off season, don't gimp yourself on the big games.

And armies that fail mathhammer generally do suck :p
 

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If you can't physically obscure a unit of infantry, you either just deep striked, played a gamble that failed, or are just bad. Period. Seeing that I can always manage to get my troops into cover, I now challenge you to do the same.

Instead of rallying cries of "HAX" why not try to accomplish that which I put forward. I tried the tson armies when they were new, and knew them to be false hopes, now instead of hearsay, why not try my way before invalidating it the way I tried yours so long ago?


It's all about sizing up the field and running duplicate units of the same height. DPs can draw cover from rhino chassis, obliterators(if posed right) and larger tanks(raiders). Vehicles do the same thing, vindicators can get cover from advancing rhinos, predators can shoot the turret over the rhinos while gaining cover, and land raiders can obscure each other if you have three and one's in the lead.

It'd be more decisive with pictures, true, but you get my point.



The only face smashing I've seen by Tson armies is when they smash their own face into the table, repeatedly.



Before you go on to quote supposed hypocrisy, you should make note not to do it yourself(IE: Running back into an argument for last minute mud slinging)

Second, it's a quote from a same-strength codex(Black Templar) it lacks the lash, oblits, plagues, and chosen. Everything is relied on either infantry or land raiders, so it forces you to find cover or die. By playing a statistically weaker army, I find my skill at the game is much more improved by tournament time. Conversely I ditch all the mathematically weaker armies at tourny time so I can rock face.(Fun for fun competitive for competitive).

The quote represents the only usable special rule the codex uses. I find it paramount to this discussion, hence why I used it. By not using the "AACNMTO" you become a better player by being forced to fight for every inch, but at tournament time you pick up a good list with that rule in play and rock face.

In short, play the worse codexes during the off season, don't gimp yourself on the big games.

And armies that fail mathhammer generally do suck :p
i quote this as a way of saying WTF to everyone involved in this retarded argument. not only does none of this help the original poster but it doesn't even deal with the original posting subject matter. can we get back on topic please instead of listening and indulging the rantings of people who wish to infight. or i can start reporting people to mods.
 

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i quote this as a way of saying WTF to everyone involved in this retarded argument. not only does none of this help the original poster but it doesn't even deal with the original posting subject matter. can we get back on topic please instead of listening and indulging the rantings of people who wish to infight. or i can start reporting people to mods.
Already reported, perhaps a new thread entitled "Successfully tried tson lists" should be made?
 
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