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Discussion Starter #41
back on topic guys, Tzeentch demands focus!

the games i'll be playing will be 500, 750, 1000, 1250 in that order.

Currently trying to build the 500pt force so baninging on about "10 of this for nearly 300 points" isn't really helpful at the moment.

And having run the maths on the God specific squads, the difference in number of men is negligible (not so much at low points granted, but still not really worth arguing about)


So, the topic.

is there an improvement on the below in 500. Remember the rules, the Tsons have to be included.

= DP + MoT, wings, gift
= 5 Tsons + wind of chaos, rhino (yeah I know doombolt rocks, but I see Wind being a game winner when there's not a lot on the table)
= 5 Undivided, melta, rhino
 

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= DP + MoT, wings, gift
= 5 Tsons + wind of chaos, rhino (yeah I know doombolt rocks, but I see Wind being a game winner when there's not a lot on the table)
= 5 Undivided, melta, rhino
I like that. The only thing I would change would be Gift of Chaos to Warptime. Really though, that is just preference.
 

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So, I know I should be letting shaantitus answer this, but I'm bored.



No one. "11 'Zerkers" don't fit in a Rhino. Oh, and statistically, 8 rapid-firing TSons will kill more guys then an 8 man 'Zerk squad with a PF Champ. Don't believe me? Check it out-->TSons/Zerks
You forgot that this is coverhammer 40k, so subtract half of those kills on the tzeentch bolter side. Also you should factor in the zerkers firing pistols beforehand.
Plus you forgot that if the tzeentch marines get tagged by a walker they have little hope of ever stopping it in combat, and they cost way more then the zerks.

But I'll humor you with two ten man squads in realistic conditions:
Tsons shooting: (Marines in cover)
18 shots -> 9 hits -> 5 wounds -> 3 die(Or out of cover, five die)
Zerk assaulting: (Marines in cover)
36 swings -> 24 hits -> 16 wounds -> 5 die

I'm confused where you got your numbers, against marines Zerks rock face, five marines die before they swing, then you get four swings with a powerfist, three of which hit. The zerks are also LESS EXPENSIVE than the tsons.



Actually, 95.841 points a turn. That is, assuming the Sorcerer survives. And that each Battlecannon gets 5 hits, which, at 2" coherency, is unlikely. Link
So you keep your tsons out of rhinos or in them? Outside of rhinos you -could- statistically form a 2" gunline, but you'd be hard pressed to in realistic conditions, so he'll net about three/four a turn with the cannon. Or all of them if he just popped the rhino and you're trying to avoid being assaulted.
I mean really, ten tsons at 2" coherancy is twenty inches of "ASSAULT MEEEE". I'd weep tears of joy if I saw such an expensive line of dudes, all ready to get their faces kicked in.


You called it, we didn't. :p
While I won't use the term "Tzeentchian wankfest 2010" I will make mention that in a tournament setting, nobody uses anything tzeentch outside of the dp of warptime(Good call on that).

I mean if you're just playing friendly games, more power to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
waffles stop assuming your opponent is always going to be in cover. This will played in a store, where multiple tables will be requiring the use of the store's limited terrain anyway, not to mention if you DO use lash you can drag them out of it anyway.
 

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But his point is your NOT using lash.

Which is another addition to MY point that Tzeentch sucks :3
 

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This is a good Tzeentchian based list. Winds may be an unexpected win for you.

I'd say CC lists, IG Vendetta lists (or blob), and MC heavy lists could hurt you.

That beiing said I'd consider the S8 psyker power (Bolt of Change? Don't have my codex on me) for more range. Winds does give you a better chance to glance and good chances to wound high Toughness creatures but you're lacking range. Just a thought.

good hunting.
 

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As the guy that started the Gift kick, I agree with Vivo on the power change. I'd save Gift until you're playing with more points, so you can afford to take Gift as a second power.

While Warptime is amazing for a DP, you could put Winds on the prince instead and Bolt on the sorcerer. That will give you range on the guy you don't want close enough for template attacks anyway, plus, again, the DP can do it twice. MCs can fire two ranged weapons, after all. They would have to be against the same target, so they could remove models to make the second blast not quite as cool, but still.
 

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Honestly if you look at building you DP for all comers on all tables, warptime is the only power that will come in handy 100% of the time. Assaulting all vehicles including heavy?..warptime up. Assaulting any infantry, including heavy?..warptime up..and then warptime up again in your opponents CC phase. The problem with putting anything with range on a DP is that you want to be running every shooting phase to get this beast into combat. Worried about survivability?..give it MoN. MoT seems like a good choice, but mass fire from low AP weapons is going to take you out easily. Higher toughness from MoN means those pea shooters are going to be bouncing off of you much more often. Your opponent will be forced to use his high str low AP weapons on you which saves your tanks/Oblits.

Wind of Chaos is nice, but I would only take it on a MoT DP, after I have taken warptime. And the worry with this build is that it will kill too much of the squad before it assaults, due to re-rolling WoC wornds as well, either leaving nothing in assault range, or ending combat in your turn leaving your opponent to shoot at you in his.

Best to leave Daemon Princes cheap and effective; 155 for unmarked WT DP, 160 for a MoS WT DP, or 175 for Mon WT DP. He will either soak up a bunch of fire, or decimate heavy targets. It doesn't take great generalship to easily make this guys points back.
 

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I can tell you that, in small point games, the more havoc you can cause in hand-to-hand combat, the better. Warptime and wings on any DP (mark or not) is going to be able to severely disrupt anything almost any opponent can throw at you. I would go that route for sure.
 

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To LordWaffles, Rot and assorted Guardians of the Holy Quartet

Whizzwang has decided to play a Tzeentch list and he's decided to use Thousand Sons, deal with it.

Now units are not perpetually in cover and if they want to take objectives they need to leave cover, which means exposing themselves.

Once they do they're vulnerable to the Thousand Sons's bolters.

Now Thousand Sons are extremely competitive, they're just a bit harder to use. Stick them in a Rhino, speed them over to an objective and then let them hold it. Against anything short of TEQ they're more than likely to hold that objective.

The only thing that you need to make sure of is that they're well supported with units that are a little more flexible than they are.
 

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To LordWaffles, Rot and assorted Guardians of the Holy Quartet

Whizzwang has decided to play a Tzeentch list and he's decided to use Thousand Sons, deal with it.
I swear to god if I see a "Help! Tzeentch against Orks!" thread in the tactica section, I'm going to blame you.

Now units are not perpetually in cover and if they want to take objectives they need to leave cover, which means exposing themselves.
FUNNY STORY! They don't.

Any infantry needs to only have half a squad in, around, behind, in the general vicinity of, or be on the table containing terrain. Or even if half the squad is obscured from a rhino, not to mention the base that most terrain is put on. Point being:
Every infantry model in fifth ed gets cover saves. Period. Always.

That is fifth edition, only bad players lose cover.

Once they do they're vulnerable to the Thousand Sons's bolters.
More accurate statement I could just run from cover to cover and murder them in CC, or bolter them back, considering you cost more than my squad, I just fire pistols on the way up. Or be a dick and sit in my car of choice and pop you on drive byes. Land raiders, dreadnoughts, and chimeras don't give a fuck about tzeentch boys.

Now Thousand Sons are extremely competitive, they're just a bit harder to use. Stick them in a Rhino, speed them over to an objective and then let them hold it. Against anything short of TEQ they're more than likely to hold that objective.
What the...I don't think a statement could be more statistically incorrect? How are you going to hold an objective if you get charged? Answer? You don't. You die in CC. So your one strategy is to sit there and hope nothing with an av score or t6+ comes stomping around, or that you don't get lashed, or shot at with weight of fire. Every army in the game has an answer for tsons, and they all cost less. Tsons are bad. Tsons are awful. Do not use them in tournament play. If it's a fluffy 'fuck-around' army? Then yes, they make a characterful unit that is super neato. In tournaments you don't see them because they are bad.
In short:
They cost too much and fifth edition took all the benefit away from using them

The only thing that you need to make sure of is that they're well supported with units that are a little more flexible than they are.
So basically build your army around sucking in competitive play. Hell if I brought an entire floatila of chaos spawn they'd do okay if I backed them up with AN ENTIRE ARMY. Tsons don't make back their points, they don't hold shit, and they die like marines for nearly TWICE the points. D: Fifth edition encourages mech lists and many low point units, anything with a 3+ takes a hit and god forbid if that 3+ unit had a 4++ save.
 

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As Lash is a shooting power, there is the chance that if you pass your perils test you may miss. It seems to me that at 9 inches away, a Winged Warptime MOT Bolt of change prince has a better chance of killing you. given the scenario of... you move up... you attempt to lash said 200pt badass away from you, you fail one of 2 ways( since on one roll you still get the power off) then you fail to execute it during your turn witht he rest of your list. Nor do you manage to assault it.

THe Tzeetch player's turn comes around he activates warptime successfully, he moves forward 6 inches towards your DP. shooting phase arrives, he successfully activates Bolt of change, hits you, and guess what s8 with re roll to wound. he will probably wound you. then obviously he charges. while your dp strikes first, the MoT prince has a better save and also since it will most likely survive it has several attacks against you that reroll hit and wound. Probably going to kill your lash prince in CC then huh?

Every situation provides itself many varibles and results. anything is possible. but based on dice rolls alone my bet is on MoT prince in a battle where its MoT prince vs Lash prince straight up.
 

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As Lash is a shooting power, there is the chance that if you pass your perils test you may miss. It seems to me that at 9 inches away, a Winged Warptime MOT Bolt of change prince has a better chance of killing you. given the scenario of... you move up... you attempt to lash said 200pt badass away from you, you fail one of 2 ways( since on one roll you still get the power off) then you fail to execute it during your turn witht he rest of your list. Nor do you manage to assault it.
Lolwat? It causes no wounds, lash -can't- miss. Also something to take into account, with identical lists, it'd be two lashers, and two uber Tzeentch princes. The uber tzeentch princes cost sixty more points between them(Sixty right?) So you're down the better part of an obliterator.
Neither army has any resistance to psychic powers, so two lashes go off and a tzeentch prince is lashed 14"(average) in any direction. He will then be abruptly gunned down, or if not, severely wounded, and charged.

THe Tzeetch player's turn comes around he activates warptime successfully, he moves forward 6 inches towards your DP. shooting phase arrives, he successfully activates Bolt of change, hits you, and guess what s8 with re roll to wound. he will probably wound you. then obviously he charges. while your dp strikes first, the MoT prince has a better save and also since it will most likely survive it has several attacks against you that reroll hit and wound. Probably going to kill your lash prince in CC then huh?
The tzeentch prince is also just a beatstick, he has no synergy with the army list, he's made specifically for the purpose of smashing faces, the problem with that style of prince is A) he costs thirty points more B ) he brings nothing to help the army directly and C ) if he charges through cover he goes last.

If a slaaneshi and tzeentch prince charge the same target, most of the time the slaaneshi prince will have it out of cover, and it'll go first, whereas while the tzeentch prince rerolls everything, he also goes last.

Every situation provides itself many varibles and results. anything is possible. but based on dice rolls alone my bet is on MoT prince in a battle where its MoT prince vs Lash prince straight up.
Yes, he is, because that's all he does. You're trading a more expensive prince for a less expensive one, and you surrender field control.

That being said I honestly enjoy the tzeentch princes with just warptime, I believe them to be nearly as good. But they are very selfish.
 

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Waffles, if you want to blame me for any Tzzentch versus Orks threads, please do so.

I've used Thousand Sons quite a bit and it took me a while to get used to them. Now they are pretty limited in what they can do. I'll agree you don't want them getting anywhere near combat and against anything with a good invulnerable save, they're screwed.

What they are good at though is holding objectives, which are usually far away from cover (at least they are with the limited terrain in my local GW), so your enemy has to expose his unit to your fire.

If they're properly supported by stuff that can take out transports or force a unit out of cover then they can work.

Ultimately you just have to learn how to use them. Once you've done that they're a great unit.
 

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The reason i was battering on about my Khorne in perspective, Is because if your going to learn to play your army well, your need to sit down and think realistically, ignoring your own bias.

When you learn your Army choice isn't the best; You can learn to play your Best, which speaks louder than fluff.

If this thread was 6 people telling him Tzeentch is awesome; He'd go into a game expecting to win and get slaughtered.

But because there are 2 people battering him saying his list isn't the best; He's gonna think about it alot more, and go on to play alot better.

It's not like i'm personally taking a grudge against him for picking Tzeentch. It's whatever floats your boat. I like Khorne so what.

I'm helping him by not being very helpful; If that makes any sense at all?
 

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Waffles, if you want to blame me for any Tzzentch versus Orks threads, please do so.

I've used Thousand Sons quite a bit and it took me a while to get used to them. Now they are pretty limited in what they can do. I'll agree you don't want them getting anywhere near combat and against anything with a good invulnerable save, they're screwed.

What they are good at though is holding objectives, which are usually far away from cover (at least they are with the limited terrain in my local GW), so your enemy has to expose his unit to your fire.

If they're properly supported by stuff that can take out transports or force a unit out of cover then they can work.

Ultimately you just have to learn how to use them. Once you've done that they're a great unit.

Plague marines in cover, with basic gear cost less and do more. That is my argument.
 

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2D6 til the scorcerererer dies isn't it? Then 1D6
that is correct ^.^

Slow and purposeful gives you relentless :D

EDIT:

wow... alot fo rage in this thread....

and also we wernt telling him Tzeentch was awsome...

we were informing him of the advantages of Tzeentch since he established that this is the army he wants to play simple as that
 

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Plague marines in cover, with basic gear cost less and do more. That is my argument.
I wouldn't say they do more without any options, cost less maybe, but do more no.

a basic 9 man Tsons squad with Asp required Sorcerer and power might cost a bit more, but it can do more. Unlike PMs, they don't need cover, and unlike PM's they can hold any objective without fear of a heavy flamer ruining their day. Bolt of Change can knock out any dread coming close enough, and you've got more krak grenades than a standard 7 man Plague squad. the base unit price tson and pm is the same. the only difference is the champ cost. Tsons have an expensive "champ" but that champ can pack a big shooty bunch. Also unlike Plague Marines Tsons pack a force weapon in the squad which bones Mc's in CC as well as a better gunline fore killing hoards. 8, ap3 bolters are better than 7 ap 5 bolters at base costs don't you agree?

a squad with 8 tsons and 1 sorc with bolt of change is 269pts (9models)

7 plague marines basic package... 161 points
They have no champ, no real anti tank, etc. if you want to talk basic squad that is... I think if the two squads faced off, even with cover I am positive that the Tsons would kill them easy enough. its 108 points more expensive for a reason. against MEQ Tsons have the better chance

Fully kitted, The plague marines with champ, pfist and x2 plasma come in at 231 pts, and they still get blown away by the Tsons in a straight up fight between the two squads. 16 S4 AP3 shots + 1 S8 AP 1 BoC in my experience = a dead squad of Plaguers, at least at my FLGS, but then again RL dice roll differently than Mathammer combat calculators. they don't take into consideration cocked dice on the table and the free re-roll they grant nor do they take into consideration that it is possible that some dice hit the floor and have to be picked up to be rolled again...

not mention that tsons can survive CC with a pfist unlike plague marines
 

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I wouldn't say they do more without any options, cost less maybe, but do more no.

a basic 9 man Tsons squad with Asp required Sorcerer and power might cost a bit more, but it can do more. Unlike PMs, they don't need cover, and unlike PM's they can hold any objective without fear of a heavy flamer ruining their day. Bolt of Change can knock out any dread coming close enough, and you've got more krak grenades than a standard 7 man Plague squad. the base unit price tson and pm is the same. the only difference is the champ cost. Tsons have an expensive "champ" but that champ can pack a big shooty bunch. Also unlike Plague Marines Tsons pack a force weapon in the squad which bones Mc's in CC as well as a better gunline fore killing hoards. 8, ap3 bolters are better than 7 ap 5 bolters at base costs don't you agree?
If I countermand each point will that be enough to end this discussion or will you all keep needing to be proved that tsons are mathematically inferior again, my love to be a champion of competitive play is waning. But I'll answer this one.

Firstly, bolt of change had -better- kill that dreadnought(btw pass a psychic test, hit on a 3+, damaged on a 5+, impotent on a 3+(immobile). That's what...discounting the psychic power that's a 18% chance? Somewhere thereabouts to reliably pop a dread with it? Seems pretty shit to 1/5th of the time stop a dread.
Speaking of that not killed dread, if he gets into combat with you, as a tson, you can't do dick to it. So squad wiped for 130 pts worth of dread. Nice. The plague marines would just fist it to death.

Moving right along:
Plague marines don't give two shits about heavy flamers, tsons fear them more (3+, t5 with FnP compared to t4 with just a 3+) Do I need to keep going at this point? That's not even an opinion that's just highly incorrect.
Hell even against ap3 templates the plague marines come out better. T5>T4 FnP=4++

For killing hordes, and mcs, I'd always go with the plague marines. They get more ap2/ap1 shots off(double melta/plasma) before getting charged, they reduce the attacks coming at them, and they get a fist to squash big mcs. Daemons don't give a fuck about force weapons and neither do princes, the fist is always more reliable.

As for hordes, do I need to really explain why it's a bad idea to roll ap3 on orks? Or describe what happens when the tsons get charged? Even ten orks fuckstomp tsons in equal numbers if they get the charge. Tsons are just awful.

a squad with 8 tsons and 1 sorc with bolt of change is 269pts (9models)

7 plague marines basic package... 161 points
They have no champ, no real anti tank, etc. if you want to talk basic squad that is... I think if the two squads faced off, even with cover I am positive that the Tsons would kill them easy enough. its 108 points more expensive for a reason. against MEQ Tsons have the better chance
Hurpadeedurpadeedoo.

An apocalypse warhound titan is 1250 pts and will ALWAYS kill the tson unit. What the fuck is your point that if you don't arm soldiers they die? Obviously. Use real examples for why tsons are better, not garbage arguments.

Fully kitted, The plague marines with champ, pfist and x2 plasma come in at 231 pts, and they still get blown away by the Tsons in a straight up fight between the two squads. 16 S4 AP3 shots + 1 S8 AP 1 BoC in my experience = a dead squad of Plaguers
See this is data, this is good.

I'll go out here on a limb and assume you haven't ever played at a tournament. Let's assume both squads get out of their cars and fire simultaneous from double tap distance(Remember! Cover saves!)
Tsons:
1s8 shot= 2/3 hit= one no FnP wound(.5 dies)
16 shots= 12 hits = 4 wounds= 4 cover saves and FnP saves(1 dies)
So two whole plague marines? Yippy skippy. Let's see the answer back:
4s7 shots= 3 hits = 3 invul saves(1.5 dies)
14 shots= 9 hits = 4.5 wounds(Of which 1.5 dies)
So nurgle boys trade 1.5 marines for 3.0 worth of tsons. Neat. Math is good.


at least at my FLGS, but then again RL dice roll differently than Mathammer combat calculators.
This is not a good argument. Use math.

they don't take into consideration cocked dice on the table and the free re-roll they grant nor do they take into consideration that it is possible that some dice hit the floor and have to be picked up to be rolled again...

not mention that tsons can survive CC with a pfist unlike plague marines
Really? So you'd say the tsons beat a squad with a pfist? Let's say a squad like...Plague marines? Even if tsons charge they get one attack a piece, Plagues get 2 base each.
so for your example:
9tsons = 5 hits = 2 wounds =(0.08? dead plagues?)
Sorceror= 3 swings= 2 hits = 1 dead plague marine

Plague marines swing back(Down to five and the champ):
10Attk=5 hits = 3 wounds = 1 dead tson
2 fist= 1 hit = 1 wound = .5 dead tson
That's if the tsons get the goddamned charge. *drops the mic*

wow... alot fo rage in this thread....

and also we wernt telling him Tzeentch was awsome...

we were informing him of the advantages of Tzeentch since he established that this is the army he wants to play simple as that
Personally I think he should play nothing but flotillas of chaos spawn.
But seriously, this board would be nothing more than a communal circle jerk if we didn't try to explain the full synopsis of units, both good AND bad sides. I like tsons, I like the fluff, the empty armor is awesome. But they don't do too good in tournaments and you're mathematically better off with PMs for holding objectives.
 
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