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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, so I'm thinking of dumping my Dreadnoughts back into my World Eaters army and giving them a Plasma Cannon and CCW instead of just 2 CCW. Here's where me and a bud are having issues is the Fire Frenzy and LoS. What can a Dreadnought "see" and where from? This is prolly a topic that appeared ages ago but here we go again!:victory:

Now he's an avid Blood Angel player who has done alot of research on LoS for Deathcompany Dreadnoughts and Black Rage. He says that most people think a Dreadnought sees a 180 degree arc infront of them and can shoot at anything in that arc after pivoting. I think that the 180 degree arc LoS is a leftover from 4th Edition because I can't find it anywhere in the rulebook or on the FAQs.

In the rulebook on page 72 it says: "When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles." It also states something very similar on page 58.

This is where we have a disagreement. I think that since that since the dreadnought can only draw LoS from a 45 degree arc from the tip of it's weapons that is what it can see to shoot at before pivoting for Fire Frenzy. He believes the dreadnought can see everything in the 180 degree arc in front of it but in order to shoot at something it pivots and then uses the 45 degree firing arc.

Both are plausible but I can find nothing to validate his idea. If someone can please point it out to me. Or maybe there are flaws in how I have interpetted things.

Thanks in advance! :drinks:
 

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The simple answer is this: The Line of Sight rules are completely worthless, so there's no way to determine how the Chaos Dreadnought is supposed to work.

On top of that, it's ambiguous whether or not "visible" in the Fire Fury rules is supposed to mean "currently visible" or "potentially visible".
 

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Jeep's and Harley's
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Who is to say that the Tech-priests did not put photo receptors all around the dreadnought? When it comes to DC dreads this is the way that I do it: I explain to the other player that I am measuring for movement on the dread if two units are close and either one could be the closest. Measure then move. They have reverse cameras on cars now, so I would imagine that they could put cameras all around a dread, hardwire it right into the SM brains and he is good to go. I would say that dreads can see 360 degrees.
 

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Yeah I would also say they can see 360 degrees. TLOS and all that. I think the 45 degree bit is so when pivoting you can have a little leeway in which direction you position the walker, so you can avoid showing rear armour to something. For frenzy fire I think you just turn it to the closest unit enough so it can shoot at it then let rip.
 

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the rule says "it must PIVOT on the spot towards the closest visible unit and first all its weapons against it"

implying that you have a 360 LOS, oehterwise why would they bother adding the pivot part o_O?

its also makes scence since dreads can actualy pivot on its leg base (play Dawn of War, Dreads can spin 360 degress without moving their feet)

you can your friend could make w/e house rules you want though
 

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the rule says "it must PIVOT on the spot towards the closest visible unit and first all its weapons against it"

implying that you have a 360 LOS, oehterwise why would they bother adding the pivot part o_O?

its also makes scence since dreads can actualy pivot on its leg base (play Dawn of War, Dreads can spin 360 degress without moving their feet)

you can your friend could make w/e house rules you want though
What you just said is not concrete as your implying it is. First off it says Pivot on the spot, that to me suggest you must pivot till your facing the target that is within your 45 Degree firing arc, the Dreads LOS. So your penalize by rolling this 6 or 1 by not choosing which side your rear armore is facing. Thats how simple it is to me.

In the Rulebook it simply states a Vehicles Weapon has a 45 degree firing arc of its weapons. Thats its LOS. A vehicle LOS is where its weapons firing arc is. If you move a Vindi in a direction where the Firing Arc is a degree or 2 off from your target, then your tank has no LOS to it. The Dread is the same, its not Infantry Models where facing doesnt matter, The Dread has to see where its targets are in the 45 degree arcs of fire it has and must pivot facing the closest target in that LOS and fire.

Im not getting where it has a base or attack characteristics make my Dread infantry where LOS is 360 all around. Its a Vehicle and follows the Vehicles Facing and Firing Arc rules.
 

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Ok The kin ellesar and i debated this quite furiously on my dreadnaught thread. I've done a lot of thinking and came to this conclusion. Yes the dreadnaught can see all around. If you pick a CSM dreadnaught you are fully aware of the dangers it involves. You have the chance of it being potentionally awesome effect or a potentially negative effect. I think that the bastard should turn any direction. He hates his team and would love to get a shot at them but won't unless he goes crazy. I think that it should nail the closest unit visible 360 degrees around them.

Ultimately though it's just up you and your friend's playing the game. Most of the time your opponent is going to say he thinks that the dread will turn aound and fire fuck your own units. once in a while you'll find someone who thinks along the line of only seeing units within it's arc blah blah blah or it won't turn around when it goes crazy and blah blah blah.

Truely Ultimately we'll have to wait till the 5th ed. Chaos codex comes out and have this rule resolved. Till then, Enjoy the bickering between people about this rule.

woog out!
 

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What you just said is not concrete as your implying it is. First off it says Pivot on the spot, that to me suggest you must pivot till your facing the target that is within your 45 Degree firing arc, the Dreads LOS. So your penalize by rolling this 6 or 1 by not choosing which side your rear armore is facing. Thats how simple it is to me.

In the Rulebook it simply states a Vehicles Weapon has a 45 degree firing arc of its weapons. Thats its LOS. A vehicle LOS is where its weapons firing arc is. If you move a Vindi in a direction where the Firing Arc is a degree or 2 off from your target, then your tank has no LOS to it. The Dread is the same, its not Infantry Models where facing doesnt matter, The Dread has to see where its targets are in the 45 degree arcs of fire it has and must pivot facing the closest target in that LOS and fire.

Im not getting where it has a base or attack characteristics make my Dread infantry where LOS is 360 all around. Its a Vehicle and follows the Vehicles Facing and Firing Arc rules.
so my question now is... how to Dreadnaughts see things directly infront of them?

a 45 degree Arc from either weapon thats all good and fine... but then theres a blind spot directly infront of the dreadnaught which he wouldnt be able to see :/ (and therefor would be impossible for him to hit in CC

also... how is a firing arc your LOS? its the arc on which you can fire your weapon, not what you can see

also Vehicals and walkers are two different things...
other then LD and Toughness a walker is in basicly every respect an infantry unit with a few tank rules

also... fluff wise do you really thing a Chaos dreadnaught would just stand there facing one direction looking for somthing to shoot? or would he turn around in fits of rage trying to find somthing close enough to him to shoot so he can go berzerk on it?
 

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Jeep's and Harley's
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so my question now is... how to Dreadnaughts see things directly infront of them?
My thoughts are cameras or photo receptors or something similar, my justification: when you assault a walker you do not hit the rear armor, ever. The dread can see you and turn to face you.

a 45 degree Arc from either weapon thats all good and fine... but then theres a blind spot directly infront of the dreadnaught which he wouldnt be able to see :/ (and therefor would be impossible for him to hit in CC
See above

also... how is a firing arc your LOS? its the arc on which you can fire your weapon, not what you can see
Agreed, however you look at TLOS for the weapons mounted on it.

also Vehicals and walkers are two different things...
other then LD and Toughness a walker is in basicly every respect an infantry unit with a few tank rules
Kinda grey area troops can hold objective and walkers can only contest

also... fluff wise do you really thing a Chaos dreadnaught would just stand there facing one direction looking for somthing to shoot? or would he turn around in fits of rage trying to find somthing close enough to him to shoot so he can go berzerk on it?
These are my thoughts on it as far as justification of it goes ... I could be entirely wrong though.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think what Warlock is saying is true. A walker is a vehicle. Not an infantry model. Especially since it is under the vehicles section of the rulebook. Infantry don't appear to see 360 degrees around them anymore either. That is a leftover rule from 4th ed. I think the fact that the dreadnought looks like an infantry model and has the pivot ability throws people off. I'll give you my examples.

Page 58 of the rulebook says: "Just like infantry , vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicles weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along the its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models. If the target unit happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons,then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon was a seperate firing model in a normal unit. "

On page 16 when talking about infantry models it says " Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model... ".

It also says on page 16 " Warhammer 40,000 uses what we call 'true line of sight' for shooting attacks. This means that you take the posistions of models and terrain at face value, and simply look to see if your warriors have a view to their targets."

Page 11 says " Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting Phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their Movement Phase."

All of this would seem to suggest to me that LoS is totally based around your facing and weapons pointing. Especially since it is 'true line of sight'. So when a Chaos Dread frenzies he won't turn around. But if you have one of your own units in front of him he will happily blast it to peices as he pivots to shoot things he can see. No unit can draw LoS behind them or directly to their sides in any of the shooting rules.

So instead of using a vehicle's eyes, as it has none, you use it's weapons. It does mean that most vehicles have blind spots but it cleary shows that on page 59. I think worse case scenario the dreadnought can only see through that little visor slot in the front and pivots to bring his weapons into line with that. Which wouldn't be hard as the 45 degree firing arcs quickly overlap. Or as I think it goes you use it's weapons to determine what is in it's line of sight as it is a vehicle, not an infantry model. Maybe the space marine inside is blind from his injuries?
 

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really i think what should have been done in the first place is class dreadnought weapons as turret mounted it would have solved problems like the fire frenzy rule, plus it makes perfect sense for a dread to have that rule instead as its main body already pivoted and so acts like a turret
 

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so my question now is... how to Dreadnaughts see things directly infront of them?

a 45 degree Arc from either weapon thats all good and fine... but then theres a blind spot directly infront of the dreadnaught which he wouldnt be able to see :/ (and therefor would be impossible for him to hit in CC

also... how is a firing arc your LOS? its the arc on which you can fire your weapon, not what you can see

also Vehicals and walkers are two different things...
other then LD and Toughness a walker is in basicly every respect an infantry unit with a few tank rules

also... fluff wise do you really thing a Chaos dreadnaught would just stand there facing one direction looking for somthing to shoot? or would he turn around in fits of rage trying to find somthing close enough to him to shoot so he can go berzerk on it?
Hmmm... I could explain quite plainly again or let this guy have a go.

I think what Warlock is saying is true. A walker is a vehicle. Not an infantry model. Especially since it is under the vehicles section of the rulebook. Infantry don't appear to see 360 degrees around them anymore either. That is a leftover rule from 4th ed. I think the fact that the dreadnought looks like an infantry model and has the pivot ability throws people off. I'll give you my examples.

Page 58 of the rulebook says: "Just like infantry , vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicles weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along the its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models. If the target unit happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons,then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon was a seperate firing model in a normal unit. "

On page 16 when talking about infantry models it says " Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model... ".

It also says on page 16 " Warhammer 40,000 uses what we call 'true line of sight' for shooting attacks. This means that you take the posistions of models and terrain at face value, and simply look to see if your warriors have a view to their targets."

Page 11 says " Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting Phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their Movement Phase."

All of this would seem to suggest to me that LoS is totally based around your facing and weapons pointing. Especially since it is 'true line of sight'. So when a Chaos Dread frenzies he won't turn around. But if you have one of your own units in front of him he will happily blast it to peices as he pivots to shoot things he can see. No unit can draw LoS behind them or directly to their sides in any of the shooting rules.

So instead of using a vehicle's eyes, as it has none, you use it's weapons. It does mean that most vehicles have blind spots but it cleary shows that on page 59. I think worse case scenario the dreadnought can only see through that little visor slot in the front and pivots to bring his weapons into line with that. Which wouldn't be hard as the 45 degree firing arcs quickly overlap. Or as I think it goes you use it's weapons to determine what is in it's line of sight as it is a vehicle, not an infantry model. Maybe the space marine inside is blind from his injuries?
Bam, someone actually goes thru their rulebook :victory:
 

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Here's the answer to your question Uilleam.

I've gone through the sequence several times, and there are no faults with how this is presented. It's the reason I run Chaos Dreadnoughts in my Khorne army now.
Sadly it still falls foul of the potential difference between "visible" and "line of sight".

If you hold that they are the same thing and GW just used "...nearest visible unit...." as it flows better than "...nearest unit that is within the Line of Sight of at least one weapon...." then the steps are valid.

If on the other hand you hold that the use of a different word is a deliberate decision designed to make the rule cover more than just Line of Sight from weapon mounts then the steps are not valid.

Also, if your are being extremely picky, walker weapons are not hull mounted, they have a 45 degree arc "...like hull mounted weapons"; therefore you could argue that they have different LoS and the arc only affects whether or not a (hypothetical) walker that can shoot at more than one target can shoot something top the left and to the right at the same time.

Personally I do not feel GW put enough effort into making all of their rules clear and consistent for these slight differences of meaning to be deliberate; however, until they officially clarify I do not think we will ever have an answer that holds up to that critical moment between winning and losing in the decisive match of a tournament.
 

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Sadly it still falls foul of the potential difference between "visible" and "line of sight".

If you hold that they are the same thing and GW just used "...nearest visible unit...." as it flows better than "...nearest unit that is within the Line of Sight of at least one weapon...." then the steps are valid.

If on the other hand you hold that the use of a different word is a deliberate decision designed to make the rule cover more than just Line of Sight from weapon mounts then the steps are not valid.

Also, if your are being extremely picky, walker weapons are not hull mounted, they have a 45 degree arc "...like hull mounted weapons"; therefore you could argue that they have different LoS and the arc only affects whether or not a (hypothetical) walker that can shoot at more than one target can shoot something top the left and to the right at the same time.

Personally I do not feel GW put enough effort into making all of their rules clear and consistent for these slight differences of meaning to be deliberate; however, until they officially clarify I do not think we will ever have an answer that holds up to that critical moment between winning and losing in the decisive match of a tournament.
This is sad and true. I personaly feel the same way about Doom of Malantai. In a critical situation the Interpetation is up to debate.

However there is a TIME HONOR TRADITION in this hobby, 4+ says it works this way or not. Roll of let the dice decide then.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I disagree. Line of sight may as well be called line of vision. Quite clearly stated on page 16 it states " In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no models have line of sight then a different target must be chosen."

Also stated on page 16 " Line of sight literally represents your warrior's view of the enemy - they must be able to see their foe through, under or over the tangle of terrain and other fighters on the battlefield."

If a no models can see the target unit they can't shoot it. I would call that their vision, no? I think the case is pretty ironclad. Especially the second example. :eek:k:
 

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Again, people keep referring to infantry models and LOS like it pertains to dreadnoughts. I thought the same way for a long time until I was corrected by a fellow heresy member.

1) Dread's are vehicles. They use LOS from the weapons barrel to the target with the rules for hull mounted weapons.

2) A vehicle targets a unit within the fire arc of the weapon and within the restrictions of it's mounting type. A dread can only "see" what his weapons can "see." Nothing more, nothing less. Don't read anymore into it than that. No vision slits, no cameras, nothing extra to add to any confusion.

3) For the frenzy pivot, you move the model to line up with the target that is within his weapons LOS as it sits on the table before you rolled any dice. You turn to face the designated target (if there is one) and see if you have a clear LOS, a cover save or not for the target, etc. This does not mean you can spin the model on it's axis up to 180 degrees, but simply 45 degrees from the weapons barrel or centerline, as a dreads weapons follow the rules of being hull mounted. You then fire or not.

That's all there is to it. I know that some people get confused because they either forget that a dread is a vehicle or think a walker is a form of infantry because it has legs and thusly follows infantry rules. But, they are vehicles and follow rules for vehicles with exceptions that are clearly listed in their entries in the rulebook and codex, such as running for example.
 
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