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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Can daemons exists without being created by a Chaos God? That is, can they just 'become' inside the warp?
 

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Bringer of the Apocalypse
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Yup... For instance, in the Word Bearer books the CSMs are usually followed around by a sizable group of Cathartes (sp?) demons that don't seem to belong to one particular god, much like the "unmarked" demons in the current (so called) CSM dex.
 

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yes. also another reference can be found in the Chaos Daemon codex were Furies are actually daemons with no true patronage and are simply controlled by any of the 4 Gods to be used by them, cause they have such a weak will and are afraid of the gods. ( look under their entry, more info on them. :) )
 

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Daemons are formed from the dreams and nightmares of mortals. The four gods represent the extremes, but lesser entities are formed and destroyed all the time.

Fluffwise, you could create daemons to represent almost any emotion if you think you can fit it in well enough.
 

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From my understanding, each Chaos God takes a portion of its power and gives it life; the more power the god gives it, then the greater importance that daemon will have in the plans of the god. So, obviously, a Daemon Prince of Khorne will have been given more power at its birth than a mere Bloodletter. Each daemon will only ever increase its power if its patron god takes it away from another daemon to re-distribute. There may be ways around this for the more powerful of the dark gods' servants, but usually no daemon can increase its power without its god's say-so.
The warp is also full of 'beings', almost a mirror image of our dimension with predators and prey. So, if one of these beasts was in the right place in at the right time, it could be a warp presence that gets into the Materium without there being any intent on the part of the chaos gods. As mentioned, Furies seem to be a half-way-house between these two ideas- in my mind they are a natural warp predator that has found some way to feed off the energy given off by the chaos gods. This would explain why they flock around whenever there is chaos energy, and might explain why they are so afraid of the chaos gods. There is also a mythology that they are the souls of those who could never decode which chaos god to follow in life, although this might be a WHFB piece of fluff.
Seemed to go on a bit, there; hope I wasn't teaching you to suck eggs!

GFP
 

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Furries are the souls of people who constantly switch chaos gods. There are "warp predators" minor demons with no alignment.
 

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locustgate, it's 'Furies'. By the darkest gods of the warp, don't bring the 'Furries' into it!!!!
*GFP shrieks in terror at the shambling horde of animal-people, and desperately tries to fly away, only realising that he can't and takes to running instead.
"The Furries are coming, the Furries are coming!"*

GFP
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ok. But when demons are forme, do they HAVE to represent a SPECIFIC emotion/thought/etc.

And can they be (whats the word) ..."elevated" to a high authority, so to speak? Like basically can they become a very powerfull and influencial demon?

And how long can demons exist outside of the warp? Like do they materialize back after a time? (I know I've posted this before but i cant find the post haha)
 

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Ok. But when demons are forme, do they HAVE to represent a SPECIFIC emotion/thought/etc.

And can they be (whats the word) ..."elevated" to a high authority, so to speak? Like basically can they become a very powerfull and influencial demon?

And how long can demons exist outside of the warp? Like do they materialize back after a time? (I know I've posted this before but i cant find the post haha)
Atleast aligned demons can.
Ku'Gath was once a Nurgling sitting upon the shoulder of papa Nurgle. Whilst Nurgle was mixing his most virulent toxin ever, Ku'Gath tumbled from his nesting place into the cauldron, where he took a great draught of the filthy contents and swelled with its power. Invigorated, Ku'Gath drank and drank until the cauldron was nearly empty and he had grown into a Great Unclean One. Nurgle laughed at the antics of his Nurgling, who had become the embodiment of the perfect disease that had been bubbling within the cauldron. Ku'Gath, however, realised that he had robbed his father of the greatest disease ever concocted; and has since been wandering the universe, searching for the perfect ingredients to recreate the toxin for Nurgle. He also captures those whom his diseases corrupt and take them back to his lair, where he can observe their degeneration more closely.
 

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A daemon can only gain power if the god that formed it takes power away from another and passes it on. According to the C:CD (or the WHFB Army book) this is how it works. It is, of course, different for Human followers, or rather Mortal followers, of chaos who can be given more power without it having to be taken from another first.
As for how long a daemon can survive outside of the warp, it is dependent on how much warp energy there is around. They can't survive in the Materium if there is no connection to the warp. So, in a way, a daemon can't survive outside of the warp at all- there must always be warp energy available; this could be via a psyker, a ritual, a warp tear ect.

GFP
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So would it be possible for a demon in the warp to gain enough power to become like a lesser god without the help of the already existing Chaos Gods?


And this occured to me; Can a demon in service forsake its service? It would probably be killed on the spot lol
 

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Theoretically, a daemon can gain power if it can garner enough mortal support. However its patron god is unlikely to let its power grow beyond anything more than a capable servant. So, not likely a lesser god.

As far as I`m aware, the only way for a daemon to escape bondage to its master is to become a soul grinder, but this only shifts its loyalty from its former creator to the infernal forges that give it new form. Hardly freedom in my view. Or it could be forcibly removed and bound into a daemonhost by a cunning inquisitor, but again, hardly willingly and hardly free...
 

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or they could be tricked like Scarbrand the Bloodthirster who put a dent in Khorne's armor.
:D
 

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As for how long a daemon can survive outside of the warp, it is dependent on how much warp energy there is around. They can't survive in the Materium if there is no connection to the warp. So, in a way, a daemon can't survive outside of the warp at all- there must always be warp energy available; this could be via a psyker, a ritual, a warp tear ect.

GFP
That must be the reason why they have to be bound into or take over a mortal vessel if they wish to hang around for a while. Daemons are inherently psychic creatures, so if they're cut off from their life force, they can't survive.

I know, it's an obvious realization, but it's my "doh!" moment of the day. Part of me always wondered why they don't stay in their daemon form and obliterannihidestroyalate everything in their way.
 

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So would it be possible for a demon in the warp to gain enough power to become like a lesser god without the help of the already existing Chaos Gods?
And this occured to me; Can a demon in service forsake its service? It would probably be killed on the spot lol
Codex: Chaos Daemons seems to indirectly contradict itself in this regard. It clearly states that Daemons are created by the Chaos Gods by investing a part of their own essence, and that at any time this essence can be retracted thus utterly destroying the daemon, and that this clear dominance is what ensures the daemon's loyalty.

However there seems to be instances where this isn't the case. The Forge of Souls being a prominent one, here daemons can cast off their previous allegiences to their patron god by taking the Iron Pact. In this regard a daemon's first allegience is to the forge rather than to their god, but in this case surely their patron god could just revoke their essence and destroy the new defender of the Forge of Souls.

It could be the case that by taking the Iron Pact and dedicating themselves to the Forge, the daemons essence is now invested in and sustained by the Forge rather than by their god, but this isn't made clear.

Another example from the codex would be Skarbrand the Exile. Why would Khorne just not revoke and reabsorb his essence rather than just banishing him from the fortress of Khorne? I suppose you could argue that since his exile Skarbrand is now serving Khorne (through bloodshed and war) much more potently than he was before, and therefore Khorne has no need to destroy the exile, but its still not clear.

Back to the question though, I imagine it is possible in some regard for a daemon to shake off the shackles of servitude to their patron. The way in which this would seem possible is by the daemon somehow maintaining and sustaining its own essence without relying on its patron, whether this is achieved by gaining its own exclusive power-base of worshippers or by forming its own realm within the Formless Wastes and somehow use this power, energy and/or these souls to sustain itself without reliance on their god.
 

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The Soul Grinder would be a similar sort of principle to the Defiler I imagine. Sealed within the machine, with all ties to its former master gone, the daemon becomes a servant of a new power.

This is sealed by a solemn pact, and in the warp words can hold tremendous power, so I don`t imagine it would too difficult to escape bondage, but of course, one source of power is really only being replaced by another.

The question I would ask is why the Chaos Gods would allow any of their servants to willingly abandon them, rather than destroying them the moment their minds turn to treason...
 

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The question I would ask is why the Chaos Gods would allow any of their servants to willingly abandon them, rather than destroying them the moment their minds turn to treason...
A daemon may have been formed from the essence of its god, but it's still an independent creature. The gods do not have direct mind links to their daemons unless they're specifically paying attention to them. I don't even know if they can mind read, I've never read about such a link being used that way. Mainly it's a communication channel. In many ways greater daemons and daemon princes have less freedom than their lessers because their patron gods are paying a lot more personal attention to them, and even then the gods are interested in whether they're successful in advancing that god's agenda, not their precise thoughts. I presume a god does in fact withdraw its invested energy the moment a daemon defects to the Forge, but the Forge provides a substitute source of warp energy to sustain them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Where can I find good Chaos Daemon fluff? Assume that the Codex will be recomended but anywhere else? I like all these stories about the Khorne and Nurgle demons though and as always, thanks for the help.
 

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I wish I could have a demon bound to my will... wouldn't mind having a busty demonette for a housemaid... and more (but I will leave that up to your imagination).
 
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