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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm looking for some feedback on a list I'm building for a tournament in a few months. So far, I'm 3-3 with it, but there are some glaring weaknesses already. Any and all critique is welcome!

Crimson Slaughter [Primary]
Chaos Sorcerer. Mastery 3 [Warlord]
Chaos Sorcerer. Mastery 3, Spell Familiar

10x Terminators. 2x Power Fists, 2x Mauls, 1x Sword, 5x Axes; 6x Combi-Plasma, 2x Reapers; Icon of Vengeance

10x Cultists. 1x Autogun
10x Cultists

Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
5x Havocs. 4x Autocannons, 1x Combi-bolter

Daemons [Allied]
Herald of Slaanesh. Mastery 2

10x Daemonettes

Soul Grinder. Daemon of Slaanesh; Baleful Torrent

1500.
EDIT: List Updated with Input below!

Crimson Slaughter [Primary]

Chaos Sorcerer, ML3, Terminator. Spell Familiar
Chaos Sorcerer, ML3. Spell Familiar
8x Terminators. 6x Combi-Plasma. Icon of Vengeance (5x Axe, 3x Maul)
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Predator, Autocannon + Heavy Bolters

Daemons [Allied]

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh. Wings, ML2. 1x Greater Reward
3x Nurgling Bases
Soul Grinder of Khorne, Baleful Torrent

1500.


A few general thoughts:
I've been mainly rolling on telepathy, though in two of my games, once I had shrouding and invisibility twice, I've been able to take a roll on Biomancy (or potentially pyromancy).

I've had issues with drop pods or fast vehicles/flyers getting behind the walkers, but I think this is mainly due to me learning how to position and support them - it hasn't been an issue in the past three games, and I've done a lot better.

I think not having a gauranteed shot at Invisibility (when realistically the list is optimal with it twice) is a huge gimmick and a lynchpin. If I roll badly on Telepathy, I'm in trouble out of the gate.

Artillery and heavy anti-infantry weapons that are able to take out my terminators without using dedicated anti-tank weaponry could mean that my list is vulnerable on all fronts. I haven't seen a list like this yet, but I've only played 6 games. I'm very afraid of gaurd or eldar, that can easily produce enough shots and can still fight me back if I hit their army with a unit or two (Tau may be in this realm, as well).

A few specific thoughts:
Tyranids with the Paroxysm power have been very good, since they can make maulerfiends bad (or even literally useless) through invisibility. This also negates my ability to counter-charge or support with the terminators during the shooting phase in a reliable way.

Not having a second spell familiar seems to be helpful to keep the warlord alive, as there's little reason to remove him until "the dangerous one" is dead. However, it may be worth finding points to take a second one anyway, and live with the target on my back.

The herald MUST be supported by the daemonettes. I've tried keeping him hidden or in a position where he can't threaten anything, and he's just too vulnerable otherwise. With the daemonettes he seems to do fine, but sacrificing two power dice in the games when I choose to deep strike them is a problem. This may end up being a Keeper of Secrets or Daemon Prince down the road.

The Soul Grinder is the crux of the list. I'm up for all criticism and suggestions, but I think dropping it for a third maulerfiend (or almost anything else) would be a bad idea without completely restructuring the list, which for now I don't want to do.

Thanks!

Edit: I guess I should ask: Is anyone arguing for or against paying for invulnerable saves on the Sorcerers?
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Tyranids with the Paroxysm power have been very good, since they can make maulerfiends bad (or even literally useless) through invisibility.
Graaah, the fact that it isn't "to a minimum of 1" really grinds my gears--especially with all the Slaaneshi Daemons stuff that is to a minimum of 1.

Some thoughts on the list--some non-conventional stuff, but it definitely looks like it would function together. No Spell Familiar on the Warlord?

And, uh, wow. That is a lot of Termis. How do you like that distribution of weapons? I'd go for chainfists just to give those powerfists a bit more of a kick vs vehicles, but... hey, get Invisibility on those and they'll be damned tough to get through. Join one of the sorcs to them and they'll get a better DTW bonus against Paroxysm and the like... though I assume you're DSing them in, so the Sorc would have to be in Termi armor and could only be a sorc who hasn't rolled useful Telepathy powers.

Since you ask, I think it is worth buying an invuln for the sorcs. Not SoC or AoDG--Termi armor. Not even if they're joining the big Termi squad, just that it costs much less on a Sorc, who doesn't have to pay the points for a power weapon when they already have a force weapon, than on a Lord who has to buy a power weapon in the bundle. You get a better save and an invuln to boot. Though you do lose a CC attack, so one less chance to Force that Hive Tyrant to death...

Hmmm. You're considering upgrading the Herald to a MC, and need a guaranteed Invisibility? Can I recommend Be'lakor? He's a lot of points, but... hell, he's a guaranteed Invisibility and Shrouding, since he knows all the Telepathy table, and has shrouded automatically himself (for a 2+ jink cover save!). You'd have to find about 250 points above and beyond the Herald... hmm, he'd basically replace a Maulerfiend as an assaulty unit, and you could also drop 3 Termis (including a Reaper)? Such a drop would also let you repurpose 2 of the Termis as those Sorcs in Termi armor I was mentioning...

If not Be'lakor, at least get an Exalted Reward on that Herald, so you can Grimoire one of your Daemon Engines--another layer of impenetrable defense! (except when it backfires, but vehicles are already tough to kill for a reason, so a Grimoire backfire hurts them rather less than a block of T3 models)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
That's good advice. I actually started the list with Be'lakor, and dropped him immediately for a Keeper of Secrets that then did badly. That's when I added the 2nd Maulerfiend, but I think I was very clumsy with placement in those first games, so it would be worth considering putting him back in.

I'd love to try the Grimoire, I thought about it but wasn't really sure if it was worth the effort...

A spell familiar just seems like the best thing to do, I suppose.

I don't have much experience with Daemons, so I'm just shooting into the dark with building that side of the list :(

However, I do have a lot of experience playing Chaos Terminators. I broke my own rules for this list, but generally I don't take Reapers and I like a good 2:2:1:1 spread on melta:plasma:flamers:basic combi-bolters. If I find I'm deep striking more, I lean toward melta, and if I'm not, plasma seems to win out. I usually arm the cc weapons based on how many are in the squad. I start with 2 axes, add a maul, 4th model gets a chainfist, 5th gets a sword, 6th another axe, 7th is a 2nd maul, 8th gets another chainfist, 9th is an axe and 10th is usually a lance or a third maul, or even a power fist. I don't really know why, but that's what I've come up with over the past two editions. In this list, I decided I wanted the reapers for a bit of skyfire cover (if you can call it that), and I've only been struggling against tyranids (all three of my losses), so I wanted a disproportionate amount of plasma and +str cc weapons to see if it made a difference. Against most other armies, if they get to 12" or into cc, they crush everything regardless of what they're armed with.

In this list, I've been walking the terminators with whatever sorcerer rolls up Shrouding, generally. Shrouding tends to help out the third walker (standing behind the other two), and allows me to get some good cover saves with the terminators behind a walker or cultists behind the terminators. I added the squad in the first place to be a deep strike unit, though, and I fully expect to DS them along with the Soul Grinder against certain lists, specifically broadsides/wave serpents.

Beyond everything else though (and I'm a little relieved that most of your points were things I've at least considered), thanks a ton for the Terminator armour advice. I considered it, but never really made the connection to it being a "cheap" invuln upgrade, and it allows me to DS them in if they roll badly on their powers. Will definitely try to find room for that for both of them, along with a familiar.

Which I don't really know how to do. What do you think of Nurglings instead of Daemonettes?

EDIT: Expanded info on Terminators.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Which I don't really know how to do. What do you think of Nurglings instead of Daemonettes?
If you don't have a Herald, go right ahead! Nurglings are the Daemons version of Cultists, especially now in 7e that they can score: basically a sort of Troop Spackle to fill in the gaps of your list. Not to mention that they can infiltrate (though, also, are a very easy First Blood if you're not careful).

Disproportionate plasma and maybe a few meltas would probably be the way I'd go, I agree. Dunno how I'd do power weapons in so large a squad: in my 4 or 5 man Termi Squads I've generally gone 1 or 2 chainfists, 2 power axes, and a pair of 2LCs. Nice to see the thoughts of somebody who's been running a large blob of them.

If you need anti-flyer to take on Nid flyers, honestly, a Slaaneshi daemon prince might be the better option for you. Take 2 greater rewards and swap the worse of them (say, the armor when you already have a 3+, or that lance/beam thing) for Lash. Meanwhile, with straight Telepathy powers, you should also get Psychic Shriek: 2D6 S6 shots plus Psychic Shriek might well take out a Harpy/Crone, and could do a decent number of wounds on a Tyrant. Shriek would be less effective, sure, against Ld10 and a Flyrant's good DTW roll, but... still, you have a pretty good anti-FMC unit, there. Just try to make sure they don't get the jump on you, because you'll splatter to twin-linked Deathspitters pretty easily too! With ML 3, that Prince would cost you about the same as Be'lakor, and would only be a 50% shot at an Invisibility rather than a guarantee, but as far as AA goes, it's one of the better options for Daemons. You don't even have to try for the combo with Iron Arm (S9 Lash, mmmm), since you're going against an FMC you can Psychic Shriek rather than trying to hit flyer armor. Though... wounding on 2+ would be nice.

Grimoire... does tend to backfire, if you don't pack along the 300 point "reliability" tax that is Fateweaver. When you really don't want it to. It can be an immense boon, but is by no means reliable, so you are right to be wary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Let's try a late night rewrite:

I really did my best to skim points everywhere, using all of the tricks I know about the CSM book. This is about as barebones as I'm willing to go in 1500. Obviously, there's a lot in the Daemon book that's unexplored for me, so any help particularly there would be nice. I'm totally fine with dropping anything on the CSM side if Daemons can do it better. As before, the only thing I feel is integral to the list (namely, what makes the triple walker theme work) is the Soul Grinder.

Crimson Slaughter [Primary]

Chaos Sorcerer, ML3, Terminator. Spell Familiar
Chaos Sorcerer, ML3. Spell Familiar
8x Terminators. 6x Combi-Plasma. Icon of Vengeance (5x Axe, 3x Maul)
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Predator, Autocannon + Heavy Bolters

Daemons [Allied]

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh. Wings, ML2. 1x Greater Reward
3x Nurgling Bases
Soul Grinder of Khorne, Baleful Torrent

1500.

I had to skim and cut out daemonettes and havocs, which really makes me scared for the amount of infantry support I have. However, adding the Prince should help me with a bit of firepower (skyfire, even), which the autocannons were filling in for lack of an alternative, and the prince himself is pretty resilient if I can get Shrouding cast near him. Had to cut Terminators, so hopefully the av13 predator can make up for it by providing some LoS cover...

How's it look? (I'll update the first post to reflect this, too)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Whew, there is not a spare ounce of fat on that list. In fact, its ribs are showing pretty sharply beneath its skin, and could definitely use another 150 points of padding easily--but I like it. It's lean because it pushes the limits of its points to accomplish things it rightly shouldn't be able to, at such a points level. Another vehicle should make enemy AT guns more overwhelmed by your walkers, and 10 Daemonettes are far outweighed on the threat scale by the DP... though I do have to say the lack of armor on the DP makes me a bit wary. Even if he's swooping, against an enemy Flyrant, Deathspitters will be getting 11ish hits on him, 5-6ish wounds--you want to be able to take a 3+ against that.

I just wish that you could get a chainfist/power fist into the Termis somehow. Could it be worth dropping... the non-termi Spell Familiar*? The IoV? These choices are like teeth-pulling.
 
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