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Discussion Starter #1
Is this the worst army right now, excluding Necrons? WH40k is an extremely random game and this army just adds droves and droves more randomness. You get to start out with only half of your army. You randomly don't even get the half you want. All of them randomly appear on the board, 2/3 of the time not even in the spot you want. You could very well not even get to play with the other half of your army. No amount of strategy you employ can overcome the amount of randomness this army possesses. There will be games where you feel unstoppable and other games where there is literally nothing you can do.

I think I just need a noob-friendly army, so I think I am going to sell off all of this garbage army and go buy Space Marines or something... seriously... when my 275 point HQ monster gets obliterated by some bolters and one Aura of Decay hit before I even get to move him, it is time to move on...
 

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Its sad to see you feel this way about daemons. Yes their not an easy to run but i think of them as a great army that you cant just field the standard marine style squads. Playing daemons you really have to put thought into how you write your lists, how you split, how you deploy and how you play. Failing that their is a coolness factor of seeing loads and loads of daemons burst from the warp and charge headlong against their foes even if you do get shot to bits before you clash sword and claw
 

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Funny really... my friends would currently describe my daemon armies as some of the most broken in 40k. I suppose the big thing is whether or not you face mech armies or not: if you do then daemons arent going to do very well... if you dont then daemons should beat almost anything out there unless you get some serious bad luck (but playing daemons certainly opens the door for bad luck to come round and kick you in teh ass).
 

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Is this the worst army right now, excluding Necrons? WH40k is an extremely random game and this army just adds droves and droves more randomness. You get to start out with only half of your army. You randomly don't even get the half you want. All of them randomly appear on the board, 2/3 of the time not even in the spot you want. You could very well not even get to play with the other half of your army. No amount of strategy you employ can overcome the amount of randomness this army possesses. There will be games where you feel unstoppable and other games where there is literally nothing you can do.

I think I just need a noob-friendly army, so I think I am going to sell off all of this garbage army and go buy Space Marines or something... seriously... when my 275 point HQ monster gets obliterated by some bolters and one Aura of Decay hit before I even get to move him, it is time to move on...

I wanted to play Chaos Daemons as my first army really bad, but under advisement of the owner of the local FLGS I started with Space Marines, learned how to play, etc....

Once I started playing Daemons I saw how they can require a little more experience than other armies, but I haven't been disappointed. Sure getting the wrong half of your army sucks, but making both halves the same or nearly identical can help that situation A LOT. Takes the "which half" die roll almost completely out of the picture. The only difference between my waves is usually which half gets the crushers and which half gets the daemon prince.

As far as them being the worst army? Not even close. I've placed 3rd and 4th with them in the last two rogue traders I played in, both were 20+ players. Once you get the hang of how to run them, they're extremely powerful. In a tournament setting Daemons have the advantage of ignoring any deployment rules in the scenario. That's huge. You control the board from the beginning of turn 1 most of the time.

I'd recommend just shelving them for awhile. Don't get rid of them, and come back in a couple months and give it a go again. I regularly cycle between Daemons/Witch Hunters/Raven Guard, keeps me from getting bored.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It might by my love for the greater daemon HQ's. I personally think they all suck except for the GUO. Even then, he is mediocre at best. Bloodthirster is the most overpriced p.o.s. and his stats are all "win more" stats. He really is a pointless model, in my opinion. WS 10. Whoopie-ty-doo? anything that is relevant that you want to punch still need 4's to hit you. I just feel assaulting in this game is pretty stupid how it works. It doesn't make a lick of sense. i have TWICE your weapon skill, why do you still need average rolls to hit me?!

And I hate all of the troops except for the Pink Horrors. All the other ones range from sub-par to bad. You can never get Bloodletters in combat because one squad of rapid fire just eats them all because they don't have any armor. And I hate Plaguebearers so f'n much. I don't understand the point of paying 150 pts for a squad just to have them come in and stand there. Literally... that is all they do... stand there. Don't even get me started on Daemonettes.... T3 5+ save is just lol awful. I am fairly certain that there is probably only a very small handful of units that are worth anything in that codex and the rest are just complete garbage.
 

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Maybe adjust your playstyle? Plaguebearers are a house in CC, don't let them fool you. Having them stand around for the whole game is a waste, I agree. Ten plaguebearers on the charge are going to have twenty attacks, rerolling to wound most units in the game. T5 and FNP, and a 5+ invuln make them all that harder to kill. Charging them into a squad of marines pretty much just bogged down the marines for the rest of the game. And if it comes down to it, you're going to eventually win the war of attrition. Put an icon in their squad, and drop some bloodletters or a greater daemon on it, I guarantee you're going to win combat the subsequent turn.

As for the greater daemons, you just have to be careful how exposed you leave them. I usually use 1-2 Bloodthirsters as my HQ, depending on points. Effectively they have an 18" assault range, so keeping them behind a building, then jumping out onto whatever walks into that range works wonders. Leaving them in the open is suicide, I agree. Your opponents weak flank is the best place for a greater daemon, and then work him across your opponents forces.

If greater daemons aren't your style, I'd suggest a Herald of Tzeentch on a chariot, or a Herald of Khorne or Skulltaker on a juggernaut. Both are tough to kill, and are highly useful. Herald of Tzeentch can zoom around popping tanks or using breath of chaos on infantry, and you can put either Khorne heralds into a squad or two of bloodcrushers and they will be nearly impossible to kill.
 

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Sadly daemons are currently not for newer players, or even those that want to win at all costs (Honestly if you want a sure win then their not for you). Still for us power gaming jerks they are a perfect reason to take things easy, since if you lose its often not your fault so it really takes the edge of a match, and allows you to take it easy since losing more then you win with daemons often has nothing to do with the player. (Honestly I have had people start prancing around like gits when they beat my main army, since my retarded luck and broken lists are the testing grounds for most of my friends new lists.)
 

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Daemons are a random army, nothing you can do about it. Investing in more disposable, redundant units is a good way to protect yourself from all but the worst luck.

Check out my Daemon guide, link's in the sig.

Starting with Daemons is going to be frustrating if you want a reliable tourney army, but they're a lot of fun if you can get past the randomness.

I'd keep them around as a fun project or to use in Fantasy (totally awesome in that system). For competitive play, not much they can do unless you use a really optimized list and get lucky.
 

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no this is not the worst army right now. Daemons are hard to play and are not really for beginners. Took me a lot of games to get good with them. Don't get me wrong this army does require more luck than any other but when it goes your way daemons simply wreck face. I do agree ith hijinx though just shelf them for now and start a new army and switch when you get bored. I have chaos ( of both types ) and tyranids.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Still for us power gaming jerks they are a perfect reason to take things easy, since if you lose its often not your fault so it really takes the edge of a match, and allows you to take it easy since losing more then you win with daemons often has nothing to do with the player.
I am not a casual player by any means. Me and a guy who travels to tournaments and stuff go through codexes constantly to find hidden synergies and what-not. Him, and everybody else I play with up here, conclude that the daemon codex feels very rushed and pretty weak and subpar and perhaps only about half of your games you get to use actual strategy to try and win. The other half is just pure random luck because of way the army is setup with Daemonic Assault.

I will be the first to admit that I am just letting a couple of bad games influence my decision, but this army has screwed me so much it is becoming unbearable. Just really stupid that I only get to start out with half of my army, and a 1/3 of the time not even the half that I want. My opponent just gets an entire free turn of shooting at all of my stuff. My stuff will randomly just explode before I even get to do anything with them. And even when they do get in combat, they aren't very good at it. I don't even really get to position the stuff in the place that I want until turn 2+. And even then, I am limited by a 6" radius around a guy with an icon.

This was a list that I played last Tuesday (trying to recall off the top of my head):

1 Bloodthirster UH + BotBG
1 Skulltaker + Juggernaut
4 squads of 5 Pink Horrors (1 pink horror in each squad with bolt and one squad had changeling)
2 Soul Grinders (both Phlegm)
16 or 18 or so bloodletters with Chaos Icon

I don't quite remember the list and I dont have my codex on hand.

played against chaos space marines the first round. he had a slaanesh daemon prince with warp time (the most amazing psychic power in 40k right now?) and a nurgle deamon prince with "the good aura of decay". i brought in both grinders, bloodthrister, and bloodletters with skulltaker first turn. he has this devastator squad ( i cant remember name of the chaos marine equivalent) with 4 assault cannons (havoc guns? or something like that? its the chaos marine equivalent) just sitting on the edge of some area terrain all the way in the back and those two big ass deamons right in the middle. so, i put my bloodthirster down and it scatters some ridiculous number towards that havoc squad. his havoc squad unloads into the bloodthrister and deals 4 wounds. i fail 3. yeah... read that <-----

nurgle deamon prince walks up to bloodthirster. aura of decay. rolls a 6 on the wound and i roll a 2 on the save. 275 points. gone. didn't even get to move it. and this shit happens A LOT. i got a friend who plays Dark Eldar. everytime Bloodthirster hits the board, he just unloads 12 dark lances into him and he dies. every frikkin' time. and then what pisses me off, is i can dump a salvo of 60 warp fire shots into a squad of marines, somehow be so awesome as to deal only 11 wounds, and then he saves all except for 1. MEQ armor is so amazing against me, but when i get it, it fails everytime. -_-

2nd round, i got the wrong half to come in against a Tau player. i did not see another unit come out of reserve until turn 4. so i just quit. army is so dumb...

I'll tell you what: Give me a competitive 1500, 1750, and/or 2000 pt list that you play.
 

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Wow your understanding of plagebearers and letters tactics arent great tbh.

Plaguebearers ard as nails, T5 5++ fnp? n wont run, they take a huge amount of damage. I think usin math hammer it takes 13 bolter shots or summit to kill 1 thats good and 140 to kill 10. Especially when theres an icon in the squad and it brings in the killy units like crushers letters etc safly. ALso they are one of the best units to go on an objective only one better is poss plage marines.

Bloodletters on the otherhand are immence. 16 pts for a s4 ws5 i4 model with furious charge. Yuo only need to put them in cover to pop out and mush things. Mathhammer says that 10 charging can kill 13 marines in 1.

Daemonettes are for going against light infantry like foot gaurd or eldar. 4 S3 rending attacks on the charge and usually strikin first due to grenades and I6. Yeh they get mushed if shot but thats whats cover for.

And losing that thirster is just plain bad luck evry army can hav something like that happen to them, me crons losing both lith due to lucky lascannons, my opponent losing his LR aries and vindicator in 1st turn, my demons losing both the LoC and plaguebearers to mishap. Im sure anyone has stories of misfortune to tell.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Plaguebearers ard as nails, T5 5++ fnp? n wont run, they take a huge amount of damage. I think usin math hammer it takes 13 bolter shots or summit to kill 1 thats good and 140 to kill 10. Especially when theres an icon in the squad and it brings in the killy units like crushers letters etc safly. ALso they are one of the best units to go on an objective only one better is poss plage marines.
why are your opponents shooting bolters at them? u play against kids or something? "plaguebearers are awesome when your opponent is shooting the wrong weapons at them!" that is essentially what you just said. I am not denying their ability to soak up damage. that is obviously "the thing" they do. other than that, they do nothign else really. and lol at whoever said "plaguebearers on the charge get 2 ATTACKS!"... really? SnP unit going to charge someone?

Bloodletters on the otherhand are immence. 16 pts for a s4 ws5 i4 model with furious charge. Yuo only need to put them in cover to pop out and mush things. Mathhammer says that 10 charging can kill 13 marines in 1.
Umm... you go on I1 if you are in cover... so no. putting them in cover is bad idea. these guys are pretty frail with pretty bad saves. and if your opponent has half a brain, those blood letters are NEVER going to get furious charge to go off. they are infantry. they have 0 mobility.

And losing that thirster is just plain bad luck evry army can hav something like that happen to them, me crons losing both lith due to lucky lascannons, my opponent losing his LR aries and vindicator in 1st turn, my demons losing both the LoC and plaguebearers to mishap. Im sure anyone has stories of misfortune to tell.
its the fact that you can't hide the bloodthirster unless there is a gigantic ass building on the map. if there isn't, then you can *gasp* at best get 4+ cover! which does nothing for him obv. and then he eats 12 dark lances and dies. way to easy to kill, imo. it is, quite literally, plop him on the map and hope he doens't explode. if he doesn't, then you get to fly up to a dark eldar raider, break it open, then eat 9 dark lances. if he isn't dead by then, then your opponent is horrendously unlucky. and even then, your bloodthirster hasn't even come CLOSE to making his points back.
 

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PBs don't fight well at all. They have 2 jobs: holding objectives and filling out your Troops on the cheap so you can afford good stuff.

Your biggest problem is the lack of shooty and Fiends. You need the shooty (bolt) to threaten armor and Fiends to do the rest.

1500

HQ
3x Tzerald w/ chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch, Breath of Chaos, Master of Sorcery
Elites
3x 6 Fiends
Troops
3x 5 Plaguebearers, 1 Instrument
Heavy Support
2x Daemon Princes w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Tzeentch, Breath of Chaos

2000
HQ
3x Tzeralds w/ chariot, bolt, breath, Master
Elites
3x 6 Fiends
Troops
4x 5 PBs
Fast Attack
15 Khorne dogs, Karanak
Heavy Support
3x Tzeentch DPs w/ bolt, gaze
 

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Damn it peaple your forgetting what plaguebearers do best! Deliver Icons for the better better units. Honestly anyone who has played alot of games with daemons knows how valuable a 15-20 point Plaguebearer squads is to get icons close enough to the enemy to bring down the big stuff. Of course some people like to throw caution to the wind and try to bring down the most expensive stuff in the first wave (Often leading to 20% of your army having to roll on the deepstike mishap table or take dangerous terrain saves). Still they really do suffer against artillery spam. Also plague bearers do just as well against most GECK units as any other daemon troop, just don't expect them to hold up assault marines or genestealers..
 

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PBs are great at killing stuff... but only if you are doing a tally list; in which cae the only thing better then PBs are nurglings.
As it is 1 attack at low WS just isnt enough to do much of anything to anyone, even with the reroll to wound that they almost always get.

I take a different view to Chumbalaya who only ever says 'fiends and bolt'... I think its all about balancing the army to your own tastes, but you'll still need anti-tank in there. Fiends are the best choice in the book and can do anti-tank roles (though I prefer to keep them in anti-infantry if I can) but the choices he never mentions are screamers, soul grinders and daemonettes.

Screamers are a marmite choice: either you love them or you hate them- they are immense at what they do for how much they cost... but they arent particularly multi-functional against most enemies and because they are cheap dont expect them to carve their way through an enemy army like fiends can... however you can get 3 units of them for well under the cost of a full unit of fiends, they are just as hard to kill and will murder any vahicle that comes close enough for them to charge (sure they hit on 4+ or 6+ most of the time but then so does everything else.. and all you need is 1 lucky hit and so long as you dont get a 1 or 3 on the pen table that tank is either fecked this turn or next).

Soul grinders look to be a shooty choice... trust me when I say they arent. Sure I have destroyed vehicles with a S8 large blast before but thats usually only when I was about to charge in anyway. Whats really nasty is the S10 and fleet, allowing you to storm up to the enemy and punch through any vehicle in the game (land raiders and monoliths included). They tend to be melta bait so you need to play them sensibly.. but any enemy that tries to hunt my grinders has always ended up squished under foot if they didnt roll well enough.

Daemonettes look to be rubbish at anti-tank but dont be fooled: pt for pr they are about 95% as good as fiends are (until you add in the unholy might when it drops to ~91% as good) against AV10 and vs walkers their 5++ save and gaze will mean that while you do little to the enemy they have very few attacks to return the favour. The bonus with these guys is that they are troops and used right (in the right numbers) will munch through anything else around them, even when its in cover (the big hiccup for fiends and bloodletters).
 

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Kurce, This might be a radical viewpoint. I've won plenty of games with Daemons, I've a lot when I get no reserves till turn 4. Have you considered the possibility that you just suck?

Daemons are not a massively powerful army and they are a tricky army to use. They are just a hard army to use. If you get your Bloodthister killed by Aura of Decay every time then I would suggest your friend has weighted the dice. Most things also die when you get shot with 12 Dark Lances but mathwise 12 Dark lance shots from Dark Eldar should only do 2 wounds to a Bloodthister.

Aramoro
 

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If we had good alternatives to Fiends and Bolt I'd be happy to sing a different tune. As is, the army is so limited that we're really hard pressed to find anything that isn't as universally useful or efficient as Fiends and Tzeralds.
 

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Soul grinders look to be a shooty choice... trust me when I say they arent. Sure I have destroyed vehicles with a S8 large blast before but thats usually only when I was about to charge in anyway. Whats really nasty is the S10 and fleet, allowing you to storm up to the enemy and punch through any vehicle in the game (land raiders and monoliths included). They tend to be melta bait so you need to play them sensibly.. but any enemy that tries to hunt my grinders has always ended up squished under foot if they didnt roll well enough.
^ this. Soul Grinders are (for the points) the best unit in the codex. I use 2-3 every game I play. They never fail to make their ponts back before they get melta'd.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Kurce, This might be a radical viewpoint. I've won plenty of games with Daemons, I've a lot when I get no reserves till turn 4. Have you considered the possibility that you just suck?
I admitted this some time back and I just told myself that I need to play more to understand what to do and what not to do with the army. To be honest, it has been very frustrating so far...

Let me ask you: How long did you play this army (or perhaps, 40k in general) before you realized that there are just certain things that are no-no's and certain things that you should be doing?

EDIT:

Most things also die when you get shot with 12 Dark Lances but mathwise 12 Dark lance shots from Dark Eldar should only do 2 wounds to a Bloodthister.
This is wrong isn't it? Raiders are BS4, so out of 12, 9 should land. They wound on 2's, so 1 1/2 does not wound. So that is around 7 to 8 wounds. If I save half, then it deals 3 to 4 wounds. So yeah... mathwise, 12 dark lances school monstorous creatures. Unless I am doing the math wrong...

DOUBLE EDIT:

I fail at math. 8 should land. then 1 (perhaps 2) should fail to wound, so I think 6 to 7 wounds hits the daemon. so, somewhere between 3 to 4 wounds. Either way, I don't know where you got two wounds from...
 

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why are your opponents shooting bolters at them? u play against kids or something?
Aye my gaming group is kids well i am probs one of the youngest on this forum, im 15 but that just makes me have less experience and i can only remember back to 4th edition just beford demons came out. Yeh and some of my opponents arent exactly smart lol. But that was just an example also they are usually trying to kill the icon so i dont bring my big things in right next to them safely. Big things as in GD n my trio of grinders :biggrin:
 
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