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Alright guys, got this of from astro (thanks terrible_trygon) who got it from yahoo. The reviewer is quite negative (not entirely without cause I may say), but loads of info in here. So ignore the negative tone and go for the info....make up your own mind (Tzeentch does sound very menacing) :wink:




If all this stuff is true, it looks like GW f'ed this up majorly. Chaos has become Sm with spikes.....raptors identical to assault marines, useless giant spawns, daemons nerfed (nurglings completely gone), vehicles are identical to SM's, defiler is completely useless for its cost, dreadnought seems absolutely worthless and the end of legion armies........Horus saves us....please.... :(

If all this is true, I'm actually insulted as a Chaos player. What does GW take me for, a SM player who likes spikes and has just wasted a decade worth of money on Chaos Marines? Half the units are IDENTICAL to SM's, so now what? Build a 3000+ apocalypse army (only good if you're traitor guard, black legion or word bearers) or wait a minimum of 1 year for that daemon codex.....which could just as well be an identical mess. And might very well offer nothing to the legion players :?




This was taken from a Chaos Yahoo Group and may or may not be true but certainly does contain a lot of 'Spoilers' for the new codex, just let me warn you, it's not pretty.

- Nec


** This is a recently-posted review of the forth-coming Chaos Codex
** I think it may interest people on this list.
** Please have a good read then comment on it.
** Note: I did not write it!!!!


An Exercise in Futility
-OR-
H.B.M.C.'s review of Codex: Chaos Space Marines

Hello all,

That time is nearly upon us. Yes, it's nearly time for a vibrant and
colourful Codex to be reduced into a dull and lifeless husk of its former
self thanks to the kind yet increasingly unimaginative souls at Games
Workshop. That's right children, the new Chaos Codex is only days away, and
the clamouring hoards want to know one thing:

How badly did they fail?

I'll answer that question over the course of this review, but I want
everyone to know that I'm not just going to look at the rules itself, but
everything from fluff, presentation, colour section, everything. Just like
my Codex Guard review from a while back, this is a cover-to-cover review
that do I as a service to the cynical and jaded members of DakkaDakka, and
even those of us too blind to see just how much GW has screwed up (again!).
I won't be going through page by page, and will gloss over some sections,
but I will highlight specific sections if they are deemed worthy (or too
funny not to point out!). And yes, my often-rampant cynicism will colour
this review, but I am positive about some points - not many, but some. And I
can maintain an air of seriousness in some parts. I get pretty angry in the
Daemon section - you have been warned.

So, as this is a cover-to-cover review what better place to start than with
the cover!

The Cover:

I really like the cover of this edition of the Chaos Codex. The main object
of the picture may not be Abaddon, but the picture is very similar to the
old 2nd Ed Codex. For those of you that remember, the old 2nd Ed Codex saw
fit to not only give us rules for different types of Daemons, but also gave
us a list for Daemon World armies, meaning we didn't have to wait 1-6 years
to get rules to differentiate Bloodthirsters and Lords of Change.

Where was I? Oh yes. The cover.

I do like the cover. It's a nice re-imagining for those of us who were
around in the days of 2nd Ed. Colourful, vibrant, full of life - it's
everything this Codex isn't, and as such makes a lot of false promises. More
importantly, the cover also states that this is a Chaos Space Marine Codex.
This is, of course, a lie, as there are very few things I'd call 'Chaotic'
in this book.

So, onto the book itself.


Page 1:

I mention page one separately as it contains a large picture of a Chaos Star
and, yep, a few skulls as well, but also contains the author's names in very
small text right at the bottom of the page.

The authors of this train wreck are Gavin 'They Still Let Me Write Rules!'
Thorpe, and Alessio 'I Should Know Better Than This' Cavatore. Interestingly
my spellchecker knew the words 'Alessio' and 'Cavatore', but suggested
'Failure' as an alternative to 'Gavin' and 'Thorpe'. Now I mention the
authors because when I get to this end of the review I have a few things to
mention on the full credits page, and because I found it funny that the
author's names were so small at the bottom, almost as if they were hoping
someone wouldn't see it was them who wrote it.

Page one has a scary, spooky boarder reminiscent of the old Realms of Chaos
books. I assume this is their attempt to gain some credibility. Truthfully,
they'll need every shred they can get

Page 3:

Page three is your typical introduction page. I mentioned it only because a
couple of the headings made me laugh:

1. Why Collect a Space Marine Army?
The immediate answer to that is 'I want my loyalists to have more spikes',
as there's nothing very Chaotic about this Codex.

2. How does this Codex Work?
I'm tempted to say it doesn't. Heh.

Also has the obligatory link to GW online. Hopefully they'll have some of
their wonderful example lists up soon that usually contain things such as
randomly selected units and Havoc Squads with 4 different heavy weapons.


Page 4:

Oooh! They are trying to do Realms of Chaos. Again with the spooky boarder
surrounding some fluff about letting a galaxy be slightly singed or
something similar.

This fluff piece is interesting as it really hits home what GW are
attempting to do with this Codex. The Horus Heresy is not mentioned, and the
formally abundant Traitor Legions have become the 'Traitor Legions and
Renegade Chapters'. They are obviously trying to abandon the Legions as what
Chaos is represented by. There will be more on this later.


Page 5:

This is some new art that represents much of the art in the book. The last
Codex had a very distinct theme - Chaos killing poor, hapless Cadians. This
time it's different - it's Chaos killing Loyalists. And there are piles of
dead Marines lying around. The Defiler art is nice, and I think the thing in
the background it's a Lord of Battle, for anyone who remembers that from
Epic. I like it.


Page 6:

Much like page 4, this introductory fluff piece goes into detail that this
is a Codex about fallen Loyalists, not the Traitor Legions. To me, at least,
it is interesting, as despite my ire with this book over the dropping of the
Traitor Legion rules, the concept of Renegade Chapters and fallen Loyalists
has never really been explored. We got a little bit of the Red Corsairs back
in 2nd Ed, but haven't had much more of that since then. As I said, I find
it interesting and it's just a pity that GW couldn't find a balance between
those of us who want to play the Traitor Legions, and those of us who want
to play Naughty Ultramarines.


Pages 7-11:

This section details Chaos quite nicely. It talks about the creation of the
Chaos Gods, the essence of Chaos, and the Champions of the Chaos Gods. We
may make fun of Gav for a lot of things, and lot of them are justified as
well, but one thing I've always liked is his writing style. I loved his Last
Chancers books and, although not high literature or art, they were fun. The
fluff in this Codex is also fun.

But I have to complain about something, otherwise I wouldn't be who I am, so
let's pick on. Khorne.

'Khorne embodies mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and
everyone within reach, slaying both friend or foe alike.' - Codex: When
Loyalists Go Bad, Page 9.

I really do long for the days when Khorne not only embodied mindless
slaughter, but martial pride and prowess - skill and ability within combat
in all its forms. I want Khorne to go back to being the bloodthirsty God of
War, where power could be gained both through hacking off someone's head
with an axe and through blasting them with a massive gun.

Some of us must remember the old Khornate Daemon Engines of Space Marine,
specifically the Great Cannon of Khorne. Sure, it was possibly one of the
more silly models GW has made, ranking up their with their first attempts at
making Thunderhawk Gunships models, but it was a representation of Khorne as
a master of combat, no matter the type of combat.

All fiction is based around conflict, and internal conflicts are often the
most interesting types. The dichotomy of Khorne - one part bloodthirsty
killer, the other part proud and honourable warrior - has, to me at least,
made him the most interesting God, even more interesting than the
relationship between Nurgle and Tzeentch. To see the Blood God distilled
over time to a maniac who just wants to kill everything is quite saddening.
Anyway, moving on.

This section goes into some more depth with Chaos Warbands, and, like
before, makes only the most fleeting of references to the Horus Heresy. They
also talk about Spawndom and Daemonhood, including a nice picture of a
Daemon Prince toppling a Marine Dreadnought.


Pages 12-15:

Wow! A heading in big bold type - THE HORUS HERESY. We all knew they had to
acknowledge it eventually. Let's see how they do, hey?

It talks about the corruption of the Primarchs, Horus especially, and talks
about the virus bombing of Istvaan III and the fighting that broke out
between Loyalist and Traitor elements of the Death Guard, World Eaters and
Emperor's Children. They also talk about Captain Garro of the Death Guard
and how he captured the Eisenstein and flew back to Terra to warn the
Emperor.

This section is truly excellent and Gav goes into quite a bit of depth, from
the arrival of Traitor AdMech units, the Drop Site Massacres including a
little detail of the progression of the battle, starting with the assault on
the Iron Hands main force before the Chaos forces moved onto wiping out most
of the Raven Guard and Salamanders.

I must congratulate them on writing up new fluff rather than just copying
and pasting old fluff from previous editions of the Chaos Codex. Yes, it's
all from the new Horus Heresy books, but it's nice to see non-regurgitated
text for a change.

The section also makes mention of 'The Scouring', the period immediately
following the Horus Heresy where the Space Marine Legions and the Imperial
Army reclaimed much of the galaxy. I heard a while back that this is to be
covered in the novels as well, so that sounds like an interesting part of
Imperial History not yet covered by the fluff in any great detail.


Pages 17-24:

This section goes back to Renegade Marines, and while it is interesting it's
the typical 'vague' GW fluff that gives you hints at events, but doesn't go
into detail as they're designed to be plot-hooks for your own Renegade Army.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting read, and presents a side of Chaos we
don't
really know. The Traitor Legions aren't completely forgotten, and their time
in the Eye of Terror and their hatred for the Imperium is mentioned, so
that's
good.
We do go into depth with one story about a Sergeant from the Sons of
Guilleman's 4th Company. It has some nice detail, and, like with the other
fluff, it's fun, so quite a welcome addition.



We also get a bit about the fanaticism of the Word Bearers and the insidious
nature of the Alpha Legion. There's a pretty cool story about the Alpha
Legion infiltrating the Emperor's Swords Chapter over a period of 300 years,
resulting in the theft of their geneseed and the complete destruction of all
Loyalist elements of the Chapter.



This section contains a lot of colour photos of different Renegade Chaos
Chapters. Sadly, all of the Traitor Legions are pigeon holed into this
section, proving once again that all your wonderful Alpha Legion and Word
Bearer armies are nothing more than a fancy paint job in this Codex.

But let's have a little fun and pick apart some of these silly Chapter
names:

Angels of Ecstasy - Almost as derivative as 'Blood Ravens', don't'cha think?
Bleak Brotherhood - Do they cry themselves to sleep?
Brotherhood of Darkness - I take back my comments about the Angels, this
Chapter is derivative.
Claws of Lorek - Cool colour scheme. It's like tiger-stripe on black.
Company of Misery - These all sound like bad Emo band names. If the Legion
of Bonham is in here, I'll cry.
Death Shadows - Snore.
Disciples of Destruction - Gav has discovered alliteration!
Dragon Warriors - Aren't they a Cursed Founding Chapter?
Iron Warriors - They look pink for some odd reason. I guess NMM's don't work
on paper.
Knights of Blood - God.
Lords of Decay - Excellent. Why not call them the Guards of Death. Let's
have the Eaters of Worlds and the Warriors of Iron. How 'bout the Bearers of
Word?
Punishers - Who look like they're dressed up for Halloween.
The Sanctifiers - Cool name for Traitors, I have to say.
The Reborn - Cooler name for Traitors.
Skull Takers - They look about as threatening as 1KSons in the last Codex.
Steel Brethren - Legion of Black! Legion Alpha! Children of the Emperor!
Unknown - HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!
Warriors of Mayhem - Fighters of Craziness. Troops of Insanity! Parabola of
Mystery!

There's a page about the Black Legion that is nice, including their Legion
Banner that was held aloft over Castle Wernerstien. When I first read that I
thought it said Castle Wolfenstein, then I had an image of Space Marines
fighting Nazi's. That would rule. The variant colour scheme for the Black
Legion is also very cool.

There's a bit about the Planet of Steel, currently occupied by the Iron
Warriors. The Iron Warriors get a bit of fluff for themselves. No mention of
Lord Petros Heinous and his legions of Heavy Support choices though.

And that brings the fluff to an end. Now we're into the rules. It's all
downhill from here folks.


Pages 25-28:

We know the rules for Marks. They're a gross simplification. No more Blood
Rage, True Grit, or anything resembling interesting rules. They're just +1A,
+1I, +1T and some funky Invul rules for 1KSons.

We get stuff on Icons without any rules. Mentions of Havocs for some reason.
There's a whole paragraph on how Havocs love to use Rhinos. Umm. what? Stuff
on Chosen and Chaos Bikers. Boring, boring, boring. Chosen can Infiltrate.
Whatever. Terminators can always Deep Strike for some reason.


Page 29:

Possessed get their own special mention because of just how much they suck.
How can you use a unit where you don't know what they're capable of until
just before the battle? How can you plan to use them when you don't know if
they'll be getting Scouts, Power Weapons or Fleet of Foot? Moreover, this is
done after deployment, so you don't even know how you'll use them until
after you've been forced to place them on the table. What if you placed them
back and rolled Scouts? What if you placed them forward and scored Furious
Charge?

This unit is hopeless. I love the new models, but they are unusable.


Pages 30-44:

Here we get the 'Codex without the points' part of the Codex, the bit where
they give you all the rules, but none of the prices and none of the
(extremely limited) options. And just like the Dark Angel 'Codex' and Codex:
Falcon Grav Tanks, it's as maddeningly useless as before. Chaos players had
a complicated 'Dex with the last edition, but now they have to flip back and
forth to find out what a Bloodthirster. wait. sorry. Bloodthirsters don't
exist now. Let me start again. Now they have to flop back and forth to find
out what rules their units have and then back to see what options they can
get.

On the bright side, Chaos players that own Codex: Dark Angels can just keep
the front section of that book open and the army list from the Chaos Codex.
As Chaos and Loyalist are so utterly identical now, it should cut down time
on flipping back and forth through the book.

Chaos Lords are WS6. Ok, doesn't matter all that much. They have an inherent
5+(I) save. Sorcerers have Force Weapons, which I hate. I liked it when
Force Weapons were something loyalists had. Wait! How could I be so stupid?
This Codex is just When Loyalists Go Bad. By rights Razorbacks and Land
Speeders should have been included in this book.

Daemon Prince. Wow. How the might have fallen hey? Yeah, ok, inherent WS7
and S6 is nice, as are the 4th Wound & Attack. But talk about dull!

The Spawn is terrible. No armour save makes it virtually impossible to use.
It doesn't even have a 5+(I) daemonic aura save.

Raptors are just Assault Marines. They're identical. There's no 'Chaos'
here.

Now Oblits are Techmarines. Ok, whatever. I really do not know why people
think these are awesome units. They're more expensive than they used to be,
their stats have gotten worse and they've lost their Heavy Bolters and
Autocannons.

Berzerkers, IMO, are actually under-costed. Sure, they lost their Chainaxes,
but they removed that idiotic Blood Rage that made them so difficult to
control, gave 'em Frags and F-Charge as standard, and bumped their WS to 5,
so they're effectively hitting everyone on 3+. All for less points than your
typical Berzerker from the last Codex (which came in at 24 w/Frags, F-Charge
and Chainaxes).

With 1KSons it's your typical GW pendulum swing, and they've swung it hard.
What was once a 24-point Bolter Marine with 2 wounds has become an AP3
spitting Marine that shrugs off fully half the firepower you direct at them.
They're still slow.

Plague Marines may be tough, but damn are they expensive. These guys are
good on paper, and probably good in game, but I think the 'more men' factor
will eventually weigh against the Plague Marines, as you might be able to
save points and buy more of the cheaper Noise Marines and leave dealing with
enemy assault troops to Princes with the Lash.

The Sonic Blaster is still stupidly overpriced. 5 points each for a few more
bolter shots isn't all that special. Noise Marines are lucky as they're
probably one of the few units that can do a lot of things. It's the I5 that
does it, as their HTH abilities are increased significantly by their ability
to swing before mostly everyone. They are also the only unit in the Codex
that can be small with a heavy weapon. And speaking of the Heavy Weapons,
Blastmasters are not worth 40 points. Not by anyone's standards. True, even
with the 40 point Blastmaster, it's cheaper to buy 5 Noise Marines and a
Blastmaster than it is 10 of useless CSMs and a single heavy weapon, but
c'mon
- 40 points for a blast Krak Launcher? How do GW honestly come up with
these prices.

The Dreadnought rules ensure that no one will ever use one. The Fire Frenzy
ensures that no one will ever give them decent guns if they do take one. Is
it clear that these guys aren't getting a new model? I'm sure if there was a
new plastic Chaos Dread kit, it'd have totally roXx0r rules. but it's the
same metal one from 2nd Ed with the now-illegal Thunder Hammer and Power
Scourge, so no, no good rules for it, only rules to ensure that they won't
sell any more. Pity the Forge World dreads are so pretty.

Oh, and I'd like to mention that the Chaos Dreadnought has access to one -
count 'em - one vehicle upgrade. Extra Armour. For 15 points. As I said
above, no one's gonna be bringing Dreads after this book hits.

GW wants to emphasise the HTH nature of the Defiler. To do this they gave
the Defiler the same weapon skill as a Guardsman. They also made it BS3, so
it's as good a shot as a Guardsman. Thankfully you can replace its guns with
close combat weapons for free, so it'll have 5 attacks. That's 6 on the
charge, meaning it'll hit 3 Marines, and kill two. All that for 150 points!
What a bargain. And by bargain I mean 'complete waste of time'.

Next up is the Dark Angel Rhino, now with added spikes to make it 'Chaos'.
15 point Extra Armour never looked so good!

Next up is the Dark Angel Predator, also with lots of spikes. And 60 point
Lascannons that it can't fire on the move. GW, you sure know how to make a
crap rule set.

The Land Raider is. well... it's a Land Raider.

Chaos Vindicator. I think armies with 3 of these things, Possessed, will
make for a scary force. This is also supposed to appease us Iron Warrior
players for taking away all our rules. Wonder what the Word Bearer players
get? Fancy new Daemon rules? Well, as it happens.


Page 61-63:

I'm skipping ahead a little here, because it's time to discuss the single
greatest tragedy with the Chaos Codex. No folks, I'm not talking about the
author, I'm talking about the section entitled 'Summoned Daemons'.

We'll start with a quote from the fluff in this section:



'Some Daemons are weak, flittering things created from base emotions, but
with little personality or direction' - Codex: When Good Marines Go Bad,
Page 61.

I must say, ne'er a truer word has been spoken in a GW rulebook.

The Daemons in this Codex, both 'Greater' and 'Lesser' (although I'd argue
that a more accurate description for both types would be "Less Than" ) truly
have 'little personality'. And if we're talking about the 'base emotions'
that went into the design of these Daemons, I'd have to say that 'boredom'
and 'laziness' would be my chief candidates.

Sitting in front of me now I have a very old Games Workshop rulebook. Most
of you here will probably have only heard of it, and chances are the closest
you'll ever get to seeing it is in a small thumbnail picture in an eBay
auction. I am of course talking about one of the Realms of Chaos books -
ancient tomes from which so much current fluff has been pilfered over the
years. In this case it is the Slaves to Darkness book, the one detailing
Khornate and Slaaneshi forces. This book goes into great detail about
different types of Daemons, the nature of Khorne and Slaanesh, and includes
rules that have ludicrous amounts of detail - there is a D1000 table in
here, I kid you not. This book contains the first ever rules for the
Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, a new weapon called the Psycannon, and the
Grey Knights army list. It also contains army lists for Black Legion, World
Eaters and Emperor's Children.

The book is insane. Bloodthirsters used to carry big axes that contained
within them another Bloodthirster, who could pop out during the game. They
cost 900 or so points of course, so it made sense. There were Fiends, and
Daemonettes, Flesh Hounds and Juggernauts. There were rules for Daemon
Princes that make the last Codex look like a 'colour by numbers' children's
book. As I said, this book is insane.

Now let's jump back to the new Chaos Codex. What have we got?



Greater Daemons.

Lesser Daemons.

That's it.

Admittedly, Greater Daemons do have a nice statline, and at 100 points they
are an absolute steal, but these rules are supposed to represent all Greater
Daemons, from Bloodthirsters to Keepers of Secrets, from Great Unclean Ones
to Lords of Change.

It's just wrong.

Does it not sicken anyone here that Games Workshop has seen fit to publish
three different sets of Terminator Teleportation rules for three different
Codex Astartes-following Space Marine Chapters (Ultras, Imp Fists, Dark
Angels), yet there isn't enough difference in their minds between a
Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change to warrant even a different statline!!!

And then there's the Lesser Daemons. This section represents:

Nurglings
Plague Bearers
Bloodletters
Flesh Hounds
Horrors

Flamers
Screamers
Daemonettes
Daemonette Cavalry
Furies

And how are these wonderful, characterful, colourful and completely and
utterly unique units represented in this new Chaos Codex?

A 13 point model with WS4 S4 T4 A2, Fearlessness and a 5+ Invulnerable save.
They're Fearless Space Marine Scouts with +1A, a lesser saving throw, and no
weapons. I can imagine every Word Bearer player going mad right now,
Emperor's
Children players wondering what they're going to do with all their
Daemonettes, and players with bases of Nurglings thinking what to do with
their pint-sized Daemons that now have the same rules as their friend's
Screamers and Horrors.

This section, more than the heavily and needlessly simplified rules, more
than the complete lack of variety or flavour in the rest of the list, and
more than the nonsensical pricing structure of limited upgrades - more than
anything really - epitomises exactly what is wrong with not only the Codex,
but the mindset of the bumbling buffoons writing it.

After reading pages 61-63 of the new Chaos Codex, I am left with only two
words to say to Mr. Thorpe, Mr. Cavatore and Mr. Johnson:


F#%k. You.


This section is an insult to Chaos players. It is a directed attack levelled
at the people who have been playing Chaos for years and those of us with
hordes of different types of Daemons - expensive, metal Daemon models, I
might add. I don't care that in 6 months to 3 years we'll be getting a
'Daemons Codex'. That doesn't change anything. This Codex was bad to begin
with, but it collapses under the weigh of its own blandness and stupidity
with this section.

Ok, enough about these so-called Daemons, let's get back to where we were.


Pages 46-59:

This is the special character section. I love this section, if only because
we get a decent amount of fluff about our beloved cliché characters, and a
nice expansion on Mr. Huron Blackheart, the star of this show.

Starting with Abaddon, and straight away we can see that someone at GW said
to themselves 'Y'know, for being the master of all Chaos, Abby kinds sucks'.
And then they went and gave him a huge 275 point price tag, and rules to
match! Abby is just nuts! I am so stealing every word of his rules for my
Abaddon entry in our group's 40K Revisited Project. Reading these rules made
me actually think 'Yes, I'd use Abby with these rules' for the first time
ever. Not even his 2nd Ed Rules were this good.

So what are they?

Well, let's start with the three things that stand out the most: WS7, S8,
I6. Yes, you read that correctly. He's swinging an S8 power weapon at I6,
using a WS of 7. He has 4 base attacks, +D6 from the sword. He can re-roll
failed To Wound rolls with it. That's re-rolling S8!! He's got a 4+
Invulnerable Save. He's immune to Instant Death. He's Fearless, and he has a
Teleport Homer.

He really is the Master of Chaos, and damn is it about time!

I dislike these emphasis on Special Characters within the more recent
Codices. I really dislike it. But at least they're giving us some characters
that are worth a damn. Abby is great! Apparently in Apocalypse you can field
multiple special characters. I own two Abaddons. so good!


Oddly, in comparison, our good friend Kharn is a little subdued. He's still
dangerous, yes, but he lost his immunity to Instant Death. He lost his 2+
armour save. He gained a pip of strength, and with F-Charge his WS7 S6 I6
with lots of attacks but he's just. dull. Sure he went down in points, but I
really don't know why you'd bring him.


For all the 1KSons players out there, I have some good news for you:

Ahriman found a power weapon!!!

It seems that after all these millennia of swinging his Black Staff
ineffectually at anyone with an armour save greater than a Guardsman,
Ahriman realised that there was an 'On' switch at the base of the staff. Now
he has a Force Weapon! He's forgotten how to cast powers automatically, and
for that alone I think his price increase to 250 probably isn't worth it,
but at least he can finally kill stuff! Sadly his fluff mentions that he is
searching for a way to get into the Black Library and makes no mention of
the fact that he found a way into the Eldar Webway during the 13th Black
Crusade.


I was surprised to see that the Enhanced Marine rules of Fabius' were still
in the Codex. I thought that in a world of optionless squads and generic
Daemons, something like the ability to enhance Marines would have been very
quickly cut in favour of some stock-standard, optionless 'enhanced retinue'
that only Fabius could get. But no, the rules remain. They're still no good,
and I doubt anyone has ever used them, but they're there! Sadly, all is not
well with the Chaos Primogenitor. His cost has gone up dramatically, he
still hasn't found the 'On' switch like Ahriman, so his weapon won't be
ignoring Gaunt or Ork armour anytime soon, his pistol still sucks, he lost
his Invul save for a Feel No Pain save, and generally just became more of a
confused fighter. I wouldn't bother. But at least his Enhanced Marine rules
are still there. They're probably one of the more Chaotic things in this
Codex.


Lucius the Eternally Useless remains so. He's lost virtually all of his
special rules. His WS and Initiative have increased, but he lost a pip of
strength, his Lash of Torment is just a Tyranid Lash Whip. His cost went
down, but not enough to justify ever taking him. Thank God he isn't required
to make Noise Marines into Troops.


Typhus went down a few points, and gained a Force Weapon. He's actually
pretty good. Not very exciting, but a decent character.


Finally the star of our show - Huron Blackheart, Master of the Red Corsairs,
formerly Lufgt Huron, Chapter Master of the Astral Claws. Sadly, his actual
rules are really uninspired. He's a base-line Commander with a normal
commander statline; he has a power fist, a power weapon and one psychic
power. The only cool thing about him is that he has a heavy flamer. Really
disappointing.

Thankfully we get quite a lot of fluff on the Badab War and other Huron
related items. We get a two-page look at a raid Huron made on a Space Wolf
Strike Cruiser. What the Space Wolves were doing all the way over in the
lower Eastern Fringe, I do not know, but, again, the fluff is fun, so I like
it.

So that's the end of the rules section. Now we get the colour section.


Pages 64-80:

The colour section is very. colourful. Can't really say much more than that
except that I found it amusing the single picture of Iron Warriors has what
would be 3 Heavy Support choices in the old Codex. Y'know, rather than 4.
Heh.

Alpha Legion have changed colour schemes once again. They look really odd. A
made-up 'Renegade Chapter' called The Cleaved gets more coverage than any of
the Traitor Legions. There's a conversion of Lysander, but with Lightning
Claws. He's part of a group called 'The Purge', and they get more coverage
than any of the Traitor Legions.

The Red Corsair models look terrible. I'm sorry, but they're half Red Space
Marines, half Death Company. They don't look good. The red is too bright.

Their Vindicator picture includes some riveting 'detail' shots including the
hatch and the. air vent... umm. yeah. Really exciting stuff here. AIR
VENTS!! WOOO!!!!!

There's a 1500 point sample list that contains your usual mixed assortment
of random weapon choices and mismatched units. It's the typical,
par-for-the-course crap that we're used to from GW.

After that comes a jarring picture with lots of the stuff the Studio has
just painted, giving us a Chaos Legion that must be from the Renegade
'Colours of Benetton' Chapter.

Yeah, and that's the colour section.


Pages 81-88:

This is the section that Jervis decreed must be in all Codices so his son
knows what's what. Yes, it's the wargear section, filled with lots of pretty
pictures of Bolters with Spikes and huge canons with blade attachments.
Thanks to this section we can all feel safe in the knowledge that Jervis' 5
year old knows the difference between a Chainsword and a Reaper Autocannon.

Only thing of note is that Chaos Terminator Armour doesn't give you +1
Attack, yet Space Marine Terminator Armour does. Go Loyalists! Oh, and
anyone with wings can now Deep Strike. Page 87 does have a pretty nifty
picture of a Chaos Dread.

Psychic Powers come at the end. Doom Bolt's AP3 now. Warp Time is a lesser
Veil of Time. Gift of Chaos is the same. Wind of Chaos is the same. Lash of
Submission is the single most unfair thing in this Codex. Nurgle's Rot
sucks. Bolt of Change is AP1.


Pages 89-102:

And now we finally reach the army list. I've gone over most of what I feel
about the units within the rules section that you can all flip back and
forth between when you finally buy this train wreck of a Codex, but there
are a few things here I'd like to point out, mostly to do with points and
comparisons.

Daemon Princes, as everyone knows by now, have reverted back to the Daemon
Princes from the really boring 1st Edition Chaos Codex from the start of 3rd
Ed. They have only 3 options, Wings or no Wings, Mark or No Mark, and Lash
of Submission or no Lash of Submission. That's pretty much what it boils
down to. Take two of 'em.

All the Daemonic Gifts are gone in this Codex. Completely gone. Vanished. No
show. The Chaos Lord still has loads of options, but they're all weapon
options, and they're all extremely dull. Do I take one Lightning Claw or
two? Terminator Armour or a Bike? Snore-fest or Nap-Time? The Marks are all
ludicrously priced. 20 for +1T that doesn't even help against Instant Death?
15 points to increase the Invul Save. Only Slaanesh is worthwhile, at 5
points for +1Init.

Sorcerer is up next. He's got a Force Weapon, and has to take at least one
power. Unlike Space Marine Librarians, Chaos Sorcerers have been working in
the Eye of Terror for the Chaos Gods and therefore cannot get two
ultra-cheap powers. Instead they have to pay 30 points for things like Wind
of Chaos and Gift of Chaos. To get two powers, the Sorcerer needs to spend
30 points on the Mark of Tzeentch. Ouch.

This page also has the rules for Daemon Weapons. The normal one is bad. The
Undivided one gives you +1A, the Khorne one makes it easier to kill
yourself, the Nurgle One is useless except against Wraithlords and 'Zilla
lists, the Tzeentch one gives you a different way of killing yourself and
the Slaanesh one is a super-force weapon without the need for a test.
Overall the Slaaneshi one is the best. It causes more damage without
increasing the chances of killing yourself. Still, for 40 points, what a
waste. Daemon Princes cannot get Daemon Weapons. Go figure.

Chosen are still 18 points and still only have 1 attack each. They can get a
single Champion, who appears to have no options of his own, so when it says
up to 4 in the squad may take certain items, I'd have to assume he is one of
those four. So, effectively, you pay +10 points for an extra attack.
Otherwise everything else is already available to the squad, including 15
point power weapons and 25 point power fists. Rip off.

Chaos Termies are cheap at 30 points. Anyone can be a Champ. They adhere
strictly to the Codex Astartes though, so only one heavy weapon for every
full 5 Termies. It's good to be Chaotic!

Possessed are 26 points each, and as mentioned earlier in this review, you
cannot plan at all what they will do during the game, making them impossible
to use. Thankfully they can get a Rhino.

The Dread, yeah, already mentioned. Avoid! Avoid! Avoid! Wait for a shiny
plastic kit in 6-10 years, and then we'll get good rules again.

Now we come to Chaos Marine Squads. I truly do not know why you'd take Chaos
Marines. It's 170 points for a squad with a Lascannon. The Icons are priced
so that you won't take them (50 for the Nurgle one for God's sake, and you
don't even get FNP!). The Cult Troops are just so much better. Avoid these
jokers. It seems that Chaos Marines have no place in a Chaos Marine army.
This is a pity as I adore the CSM kit. It's one the best GW has ever made,
and now has new bits. Still, there's no reason to have them. Take Cult
Troops.

Also, when I see 'Mark of Chaos Glory', I see 'Mark of Morning Glory'. I
can't
take them seriously any more.

For 50 points you can have a Rhino with Extra Armour or for 55 points you
can have a possessed Rhino. Unfortunately you can no longer 'fake' a
Razorback with two combi-weapons and a Havoc Launcher. Now you get your
Combi-Bolter and one other option. What does GW have against options?

Plague Marines are 23 points each, and whilst good I just see Noise Marines
as the superior unit due to cost. The Champ's Power Fist is also 25. such a
rip off.

140 points gets you 5 Fearless Noise Marines with a Blastmaster. 40 points
is still overpriced.

Berzerkers are cheap as chips at 21 points each. They're nice.

1KSons I've been over. Sorc has a Force Weapon. All you 1KSons players out
there better start removing those power fists from your Champions.

Chaos Bikers have gone down by one point, and lost an attack. I guess the
lack of new model means they got ignored. They really suck now with base A1
rather than A2.

Chaos Raptors, as I've said, are now just Loyalist Assault Marines but with
access to Plasma Guns and Meltaguns. They can have Icons, but they're so
overpriced you wouldn't bother.

Spawn are 40 points each. With no armour save you wouldn't bother.

Havocs, unlike their Loyalist counter-parts, cannot get Tank Hunters. They
pay stupid prices for their guns as usual and. and this made me laugh. can
buy an Icon of Khorne. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's hilarious.

I've been over Oblits.

Chaos Predator with 3 Lascannons costs 20 points more than the old version.
It's not a better shot, it's no more mobile, and it's no more durable.
Nothing's changed, much like GW's writing abilities. Oh, you can get
Possession and lose a point of Ballistic Skill if you like. Good one Gav.

Vindi is 125. Possession makes it 145. Bring on the trios of Vindis!

Defiler is 150. No more indirect. Bad statline, more CCWs. What a waste.
Seriously, who honestly thought that giving the Defiler a few extra attacks
and Fleet yet keeping the Defiler at WS3 would make it into a HTH monster?
It misses MEQs half the damn time. How is that useful?

Land Raider is still 40 points too expensive. Possessing it might be a good
idea, as you don't lose to much - all the guns are twin-linked anyway.

And the less said about Generic Daemons the better.




Page 104:

This is the summary page. I only mention this as it contains the full
credits at the bottom. It has a few interesting things.



Written By: Gav Thorpe
Additional Text: Alessio Cavatore

What's that? Alessio did 'additional text'. What does that mean? I guess he
showed up at the office each day, and between his half an hour coffee break
and 3 hour lunch he looked over Gav's shoulder, shook his head and thought
to himself 'Maybe I'll fix it before we go to print. or maybe I'll just take
a 4 hour lunch today'.

The other interesting thing about the credits is not something that's
written there, but something that's not written there. What's missing?


Jervis' name.


He's not even mentioned in the special thanks section. Actually, I assume
the special thanks section is Gav saying thankyou to all those people for
not firing him years ago after he wrote the 3rd Ed Blood Angel Codex.

So yeah, Jervis is actually not mentioned at all in this book. Funny how
things happen.


Conclusion:

I titled this review 'An Exercise in Futility' not so much because of the
content of this particular Codex, but more as a commentary on GW at the
moment. What we all have to realise is that despite the good rules in this
Codex, and despite the 'fun' fluff that I enjoyed quite a bit, nothing we do
or say will make GW change their current trend.

Options will vanish. Variety will go out the window. Entire armies will be
invalidated or heavily nerfed, all despite the long-forgotten promises
before 4th Ed that 'nothing would change'. And we can't do squat about it.
sorry. I mentioned Squats. Pun. let's say that was intended.

Think of this part of 40K's development history as the Ecclesiarchy's Reign
of Blood. Maybe Rick Priestly will come back to play out the role of
Sebastian Thor to Jervis' Lord Vandire. We can only hope!!!

So your three options are keep playing, stop playing, or do what our group
has done and re-write 40K to make it into a game we have fun playing.

As for this Codex, well, as I said, it's a train wreck. It's so full of.
blandness. that it makes me sad. The Legions are gone - in fact, they're
hardly mentioned. The Horus Heresy plays a supporting role in this Chaos
Codex. The Daemons are an insult. The points costs don't make sense. The
list itself is dull.

We spent a lot of time making fun of Pete Haines, but the truth is I miss
him. He might have demonstrated the subtlety of an Imperator Titan when he
made his personal Iron Warrior army awesome and 1KSons suck, but he made a
Codex that we all enjoyed. Yes, it could be abused. Yes, it was near
impossible to balance. But damn it, it was fun. Having a page of tiny,
3-columned text for the Wargear section was fun. Having all those options
and all those Legions was fun.

This new Codex isn't fun, and truly fun is what 40K is about. If a Codex is
no fun, it is a failure.
 

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Porn King!!!
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Lame. Sorry but that 'review' was written by a person who went in deciding ahead of time to dislike the new codex. As soon as HMBC heard the daemons were becoming generic in the new codex on Dakka, he went ballistic about how it was going to suck. Here is a direct quote which sums it up:

Options will vanish. Variety will go out the window.
Like hell. How exactly has variety gone out the window? Because daemonic gifts are gone? Or vet skills? Let's face it, the same gifts and skills were used by EVERYONE which didn't exactly lead to variety. Now we can combine units we couldn't before, mark units we couldn't before, etc. You are not going to be seeing the same chaos army across the table from you regardless of who you play now. Even his comment of how the Legions are gone is asinine. The legions are there just like always, they just have different rules now. I don't need a supremely limiting ruleset to field a Thousand Sons legion army. Now I just give damn near everything in the army the Icon or Mark of Tzeentch, paint them accordingly, and BAM, Thousand Sons Legion. Here is another quote:

Daemon Prince. Wow. How the might have fallen hey? Yeah, ok, inherent WS7
and S6 is nice, as are the 4th Wound & Attack. But talk about dull!
How is the DP dull? Yes he lacks the many options he had before (which we all took the same choice for in the main) but he is still a freakin scary ass bastard that is death incarnate for most enemies. Where is the mention that he can take a psychic power (2 if Tzeentch)? Or be marked? Or that he CAN'T be insta-killed by anything (not possible before without taking a HUGELY expensive gift)?


I will be honest and say that there are things about the new book I don't care for (loss of Vet Skills being one of them) however, this codex is actually well written, well designed, and with the exception of a couple units (possessed and spawn), everything is well balanced and most importantly is very viable and usable. You all know how much I love my Tsons but I had stopped using them for the past while as I was sick of being hamstrung by my own list and being lucky to pull off a draw most times. Now they are back in business again. A friend of mine here just got finished building an Emperors Children list only to have it change on him yet what has he found? That is list, aside from the Daemonettes, is pretty much the same as before if not a little better now that he has access to units he didn't before. Granted, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors took a fair hit but both of them, IW in particular, had it coming and we all know it.

The part where he bitches for half the review regarding daemons in this codex is a bunch of whining bullshit as well as GW has already CONFIRMED (to my knowledge) that they are coming out with a DAEMONIC CODEX next year. The Greater/lesser daemons in this codex are there simply to we wouldn't lose the ability to use our daemon models entirely which they did not have to do. Bah.

Like I said, this review was written by someone who was convinced LONG AGO that the new book would suck and as such, went into it looking only for what was lost, not gained.
 

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Oh dear so he didn't like it then. :)

The only thing I am going to say for now is the time spent reading that would be better invested in reading the codex yourself folks.

Now wheres my Purple paint...............
 

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Links Manager
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Discussion Starter #5
He does indeed seem a tad biased :mrgreen:

Still the Horus Heresy and Legions getting hardly any coverage is just stupid. As for the list itself, by what I've read and heard so far most people should be able to salvage at least a portion of their army. It is just a shame that things have changed so much that half your models or conversion have just become junk.

Ah well the only thing I can say with certainty so far is that I love most of the new models, but that the coverart of the codex isn't my taste. We'll just have to wait a month to make up our own mind, although to be honest I'm looking forward more to Apocalypse than this codex :D


Sorry about my slightly overreacting response before, time to rationalise my post...if I can, of course. It just looks like the army I've enjoyed playing for almost a decade in all its various form (2 legions of my own design, wordbearers, night lords, world eaters, iron warriors, death guard and some alpha legion) have gotten the boot.

Now GW can make a grand argument that the daemon codex thingy will bring back loads of old and new stuff, even if it is true it seems like a very stupid move to make to me. Was it really that much effort to take out some of the useless stuff out of this new codex, wait have a year and integrate the two books? I can pretty much assure people wouldn't mind paying a bit more if the product does indeed become more substancial and of higher quality.

To make matters more annoying, there's no comfirmation that this book will do anything more than thrown in some daemons, some bigger and badder than before. I was rather hoping they'd tells us well in advance that certain things will be addressed in that book.

Most annoying for me is that the materials I have from old armies are now useless for the largest part. My Iron Warriors are busted, stil I could do something else with them. Just means chucking half the army in the bin :( I don't want to start yet another new army, I want to continue with the stuff I have on hand..and not let the only thing that differentiates my army from the next be the colourscheme and the fact that I have to disadvantage myself gamewise to create a themed army....which to be honest can often be the case with a very fluffy army.....so ignore that argument ;)

And to make it all ever more annoying, my beloved wordbearers on which I've spend many an hour so far turning each csm into an individual character, which has been on hold for 6 months awaiting this codex have just lost everything special about them. Sure I can find a way around the dark apostle, no problem in fact......but bland daemon accross the board. So by the looks of it they'll be on hold for another year :sick: , unless that daemon portal thing from apocalypse does anything more than just spew out a ton of generic daemons, which i doubt.


Am I the only one who has the feeling Chaos has gotten a minor update (like the Tau and rumored the Necrons next year) and was rushed in favor to pump more time and resources into the Apocalypse project as this will produce more earning in a shorter periode of time.
 

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Fyi there is interview with a big wig from GW. (in case anyone missed it) in another forum that the Heresy era space Marines will get own Codexes.

I thought I would mention this incase some one missed that posting
 

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I am mixed about the layout of the new dex, I kind of miss the days of having an armory but it does make it much easier to read layed out like this. I think the unit info and points cost should be on the same page, the flipping back and forth is very annoying. The generic deamons maybe bland but their stat lines are pretty killer for their costs. IMHO they could have added a couple lines to each so you can add items to make them more in line with their God or at least the ability to fly.

The way I look at this codex it is Codex: Black Legion/Cosairs. It was mentioned that the specific god will be getting dexes for themselves and then there is the deamon dex. I miss some of the rules myself since I was a player of Night Lords but to be truthful, I believe I can build and even more powerful NL army now since the Raptors went down in cost then I could with 4 FA slots. I agree that the deamonic pressence could have been WS 4 BS 3 but the damn thing can get 5? attacks base with DCCWs. While it toned down the IHs a lot overall I think the new dex increased the power of chaos as a whole and this guy was looking for soemthing to bitch about. We will wait until the GT season hits and see the true power of chaos.
 

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I am mixed about the layout of the new dex, I kind of miss the days of having an armory but it does make it much easier to read layed out like this. I think the unit info and points cost should be on the same page, the flipping back and forth is very annoying. The generic deamons maybe bland but their stat lines are pretty killer for their costs. IMHO they could have added a couple lines to each so you can add items to make them more in line with their God or at least the ability to fly.

The way I look at this codex it is Codex: Black Legion/Cosairs. It was mentioned that the specific god will be getting dexes for themselves and then there is the deamon dex. I miss some of the rules myself since I was a player of Night Lords but to be truthful, I believe I can build and even more powerful NL army now since the Raptors went down in cost then I could with 4 FA slots. I agree that the deamonic pressence could have been WS 4 BS 3 but the damn thing can get 5? attacks base with DCCWs. While it toned down the IHs a lot overall I think the new dex increased the power of chaos as a whole and this guy was looking for soemthing to bitch about. We will wait until the GT season hits and see the true power of chaos.
You mean the summoned daemons? The "Weaker than the average chaos marine" daemons? Those idiots?
Yes, what a lovely boon they gave us. And if they kill off everyone with those expensive icons(50 points for +1 toughness? Really? Albeit the Lords is decently cheap) than we can't summon them and it's just lost points. Whee.
While chaos did get potentially more numerous, all our top tank/skimming hunting options died down, Obliterators don't survive as well and are more expensive, defilers can't lob shots over walls anymore. And our ENTIRE daemonic gifts section was scrapped because "It makes things easier hurrhurr". What we got was "Angry marines codex, with special guest appearence by a smattering of ruinous powers"
Also you can field more raptors because they don't do as much. They didn't give us anything for 'free'.

Although chaos got some much-needed nerfs, this codex simply isn't a true representation of what chaos is, it's just "Pirate space marines! FwooooOOOOoooosh!" Like the other guy said, I completely agree.

But he may have gone abit overboard, the dp is just a huge monster with a better statline.
/rant
 

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i like the new codex it makes god specific armies easier which the old one didn't (IMO) the daemon prince is a bit disaponting so are what the marks do to characters but over all i like it.
 

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The way I look at this codex it is Codex: Black Legion/Cosairs. It was mentioned that the specific god will be getting dexes for themselves and then there is the deamon dex.
i dont profess myself to be an expert on chaos, but i can see some parallels between the new Chaos dex and the 'Codex: Ultramarines' SM placers got back in '06; kinda bland, lots of simplification, and a bias towards one of the many factions available to that army. i think this heralds the era of dexes for individual traitor legions, just as the SM legions are getting their own dexes. after having a colorful argument with a redshirt about this, he said that to his knowledge, it was a "definite possibility."

is it too much to imgine that the codex: daemonica will reintroduce daemonic gifts? i think it would not only be cool, but utterly logical...but judging from GW's recent business forays, i wouldn't place much stock in their logical capacity.

what i guess im trying to say is that while this chaos dex is somewhat opposed to chaos itself (do whatever you want so long as you can pay for it), it is still fun; and that we should all cross our fingers for codex: daemonica.

peace out
 
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