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Discussion Starter #1
Now, unless the rules of my armybook get errat'd my chaos dragon will count as a hero choice in the new rules, this means I'm able to get a lord on dragon at 2250pts, anyways, without further adeiu I wish to present my list for critique!


Characters
von Mannstein Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon, MoK, Armour of Morsleib, Favour of Gods, Diabolic Splendour, Blasphemous Amulet, Shield, Whip of Subversion 720.

von Tod Exalted Hero 110 BSB, Juggernaught 75 185

Total Char
Core
Marauder Horseman x5 Throwing Axe 75
Marauder Horseman x5 Throwing Axe 75
Marauder Horseman x5 Throwing Axe 75
Marauder Horseman x5 Throwing Axe 75
Marauder Horseman x5 Throwing Axe 75
Marauder Horseman x5 Throwing Axe 75
Chaos Warhounds x9 54
Chaos Warhounds x10 60



Special
Chaos Knights Musician, MoK, Std 260
Chaos Knights Musician, MoK, Std 260
Chaos Knights Musician, MoK, Std 260

Rare


Total Cost 2249

This is made in light of confirmed rumours for 8th edition, that is percentages, trample, fear/terror giving +1/+2 to combat rez etc.

The idea of this army is to get into the enemies face by my second turn, the marauder horsemen and dogs advance in front, harassing/annoying and distracting the enemy, the dragon also takes the offensive moving straight up in the first turn along with the knights, this enables me to let loose into them by my second turn, only absorbing a maximum of 2 volleys (stand and shoot + magic by the time I make contact).

The knights will hit with 15 S5 and 10 S4 attacks on the charge, enough to all but negate the new fighting back rules.

My light cav will be adopting a harassing role, attacking flanks, skirmishers characters etc. The only thing I was tossing up was having them in two ranks, so it's possible to negate ranks when my knights charge, making it possible to break enemy units....The fast cav (hopefully) will still be able to reform and make the most of their ranged weaponry.

Anyway, let me know what you think....

At 3000pts an idea I had was to add in two hellcannons and two warshrines to help bless and power up my units but I wasn't too sure....the hellcannons/artillery doesn't compliment the speed of the army overly well except maybe supporting fire.....
 

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if your trying to go into the 8th editon rumors, then even in 3000 your characters are illegal by over 100 points.
 

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Its CHARACTERS percentage is within the 25%. The dragon is part of your lord he just sucks up another hero choice for 7th edition.

And also, lets say your rumour is correct, you only get 562.5 points in either category. Your DRAGON is not a seperate character, he is a UPGRADE to your lord, still making you illegal in both of our rumours we know.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Its CHARACTERS percentage is within the 25%. The dragon is part of your lord he just sucks up another hero choice for 7th edition.

And also, lets say your rumour is correct, you only get 562.5 points in either category. Your DRAGON is not a seperate character, he is a UPGRADE to your lord, still making you illegal in both of our rumours we know.
Unless they errata my book that won't be the case, currently my book says the dragon comes from hero points.
 

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are you sure it doesn't say 'takes up a hero choice' - i haven't got the book with me so its a genuine question, but if it does, thats different to what you think it means.

a mount is always an upgrade as much as say, taking a shield is. it counts towards the total points of the character that rides it.
 

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are you sure it doesn't say 'takes up a hero choice' - i haven't got the book with me so its a genuine question, but if it does, thats different to what you think it means.

a mount is always an upgrade as much as say, taking a shield is. it counts towards the total points of the character that rides it.
The exact wording is "...uses up one of your Hero choices...."(page 121).

Unless there is a definitive ruling somewhere else, NagashKhemmler's appears valid to me.
 

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It cant cuz its a mount and in all cases a mount is an upgrade to the character no matter the circumstances. They will have to say it in the new rules themselves that anything that says it takes up an additional hero slot counts as buying it as a hero. So even though its right in yours and wrong in mine, its still all rumours so you still cannot assume that you did your list right. IMO the 25% lords and 25% hero is not going to happen cuz that will effectively make half your army characters and not even GW is that insane.
 

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The exact wording is "...uses up one of your Hero choices...."(page 121).

Unless there is a definitive ruling somewhere else, NagashKhemmler's appears valid to me.
"uses up one of your Hero choices" isn't the same as "the dragon comes from hero points"

the former says he takes up an hero allocation from the maximum permitted, whereas Nagash is implying that the dragon itself acts as a character in it's own right which simply isn't the case
 

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The dragons points count towards whoever's riding it IE:Lords points but you have 1 less hero slot. so that would make him more than 25% if the rumors are true.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
25% - Lords
25% - Heroes

The old percentage system was 50% characters.

Under the current system it was easily possible to have half your points in characters.

25% characters would be too little given the high cost of some armies characters (imagine 25% for characters for 2000 points for chaos....they can barely afford a single lord at 2000 points...imagine daemons of chaos, they couldn't have a lord at 2000 points...regardless lol

Anyway, 50% is the norm for characters from ages past.
 

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"uses up one of your Hero choices" isn't the same as "the dragon comes from hero points"

the former says he takes up an hero allocation from the maximum permitted, whereas Nagash is implying that the dragon itself acts as a character in it's own right which simply isn't the case
Firstly, the Dragon is independent form the character in a way that no weapon, armour, or item upgrade is: if the Lord is killed the Dragon remains.

Secondly, as the Warriors of Chaos Army Book does not indicate whence the points for the Dragon come the best answer to the question would come from Errata or other rules, e.g. a scenario where you deploy your Heroes in a special way confirming the position for portmanteau units. In the absence of those the next approach is to consider whether something that is a thing for one purpose might be the same thing for other purposes and look at whether it is paradoxical; therefore, as a Dragon is a Hero choice for how many you can take then it could be a Hero choice for how much you can spend.

Until I see definitive rules one way or the other, I still believe the OP's approach is a valid solution to the question.
 

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The reason the dragon reamains is because it is a monsterous mount. Its big enough to survive on its own. It has all different stats, just like all mounts. But you must just see our arguement that the dragon comes as a chosen mount for the lord and takes up a slot for the hero choice you have in an army. What I also see if we did both (cuz we still have a few weeks before the rules show up) of are rules as one, he would still be illegal becuz the lords points is too high.

@Nagash: Let me explain why IMO and from my dads friends who HAVE CONNECTIONS to how the rules are written. Games are no longer going to be 2000, 3000 is going to be the new standard games. I do agree in 2000 you can barely afford a lord (i dont do the 720 points like you did so I can) and you can have a greater deamon if you fix it. And if you actually look at what you just said, in a 3000 point game standard, you can have 3 greater deamons in one army, built up to kill, and you just buy lil guys to fill up the points. NO GAME would ever be played against something like that. There is no point then. That would make armies so much different that it looks unplayable because youve invested half your points in characters. Plus your basing your assumption because they did it before. GW did that because prices werent as ridicuously high as they are now. The rulebook itself is 75 bucks now. If they do what you think then most are going to quit because having 50% in characters is stupid, outrageous, and it becomes impossible to enjoy.
 

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i'm looking at this with an open mind, but i still disagree. by the way, some of my answer seems a little arsey. it's not supposed to be and i've tried to word it so it isn't. no arsey-ness is intended by it, i just can't find a better way to give my answer without them not explaining myself clearly, so sorry in advance.

the dragon is listed as an option for the Chaos Lord or the Sorcerer Lord, thus making it part of his points. Furthermore, page 59 of the Rulebook states that 'A monster and its rider or riders count as a single model in the same way as a cavalry model'. that to me suggests that the points count as one.

would you consider a Wood Elf player wishing to field Orion the same since orion is a single model which takes up a lord and a hero choice? what about a tomb king player wishing to field Settra ? he takes up two Lord slots, which whilst not the same as orion of the lord w/ dragon, does use up multiple slots

regards the how many verses how much point, i see what you mean, but the very nature of the inclusion of the how many rule is intended to be an exception to the way the system normally works.
 

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Thats a valid arguement on this. Many characters take up addtional hero slots, so it hard to say that what they would count as since a lord on a dragon would be the same. That rule of them counting as a single should actually fix it. If they count as one model then its all that points, making it an illegal lord.
 

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...you must just see our arguement that the dragon comes as a chosen mount for the lord....
Your interpretation is equally valid; if GW actually address the issue then I suspect the likely decision is that all mounts will counts as part of their rider whether or not they take up choices on their own. However, as the OPs interpretation is just as supported by actual RAW as yours, I felt it needed to be set out.

would you consider a Wood Elf player wishing to field Orion the same since orion is a single model which takes up a lord and a hero choice? what about a tomb king player wishing to field Settra ? he takes up two Lord slots, which whilst not the same as orion of the lord w/ dragon, does use up multiple slots
Under the "uses up" interpretation when you are checking to see if too great a percentage has been spent on Heroes/Lords then as both Orion and Settra count as two choices they would be compared to two allowances.

Furthermore, page 59 of the Rulebook states that 'A monster and its rider or riders count as a single model in the same way as a cavalry model'. that to me suggests that the points count as one.
So, in terms of rules that treat treat a character and dragon as separate there is one for and one against. I do not think we are going to solve it.
 

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i think your last point pretty much sums up this thread really, especially since we are discussing it with two different editions, one of which only went on pre-order today.

i'm sure things like this will be rectified by the new rules, or at least badly handled by a subsequent FAQ, so for that reason, i'm tapping out.
 

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ok. I have got confirmation for all of this. His army is legal....in a 3000 game. His hero choice cuts out, but it has been confirmed that the dragon is part of the lord and does not contribute to the points of hero choices allowed in 8th edition. He is correct on the 25% Lord and 25% Hero part. You must also have at least 25% in core and 0-25% in both special and/or rare, but maximum is 3 special and 2 rare. So this arguement is over now. You must either drop most of your magic items or drop the dragon. and you must drop a unit of Knights.
 
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