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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So this should be obvious IMHO, but a person I play with is insisting I am playing it wrong, so I thought I'd ask. The rules say under Challenges/Outside Forces:

“Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.
This says to me that if I charge into a single model unit, like Mephiston, and challenge with my Captain my other Command Squad Marines can also attack him. The reason for that is the "if any". If there are no attacks how can there be wounds?
 

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This says to me that if I charge into a single model unit, like Mephiston, and challenge with my Captain my other Command Squad Marines can also attack him. The reason for that is the "if any". If there are no attacks how can there be wounds?
You are correct. Some butthurt for lonely characters, i guess. I can't see how to read the rule differently.
 

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I don't have the rules in front of me but IIRC is there a statement previously that says only those fighting in the challenge can attack each other and if you have the situation above the command squad basically give moral support, which is a number of re-rolls depending on the number of non-combatants?
 

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I don't have the rules in front of me but IIRC is there a statement previously that says only those fighting in the challenge can attack each other and if you have the situation above the command squad basically give moral support, which is a number of re-rolls depending on the number of non-combatants?
Both yes and no. In 7th the excess wounds work a tad differently.

Example: Your Daemon Prince with a Black Mace attacks a Space Marine Sergeant. You inflict 8 wounds. The Sergeant only has 1 wound, and thus the remaining 7 get's carried over to the unit that's out of the challenge.

However, as I read it, if it is a lonely model (In this example a Daemon prince) I don't see anywhere that the unit can attack it, if it is in a challenge. AGAIN HOWEVER, if it was a squad of 5 Chaos Marines (4 regular and a aspiring champion) instead of a Daemon Prince, it's another story. Seeing as wounds are carried over both ways, if all 4 Chaos Marines dies outside the challenge, and the Marine player inflicted 7 wounds with his regular guys, then the remaining 3 wounds would be spilled over on the warlord in the challenge. If he survives it, the regular Marines cannot attack him further though - Only his challenger can.

That's how I understood it at least.
 

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“Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.”
@Nordicus , i think the rule is pretty clear. after there is no one else to take the wounds, they go to the model in challenge. The "if any" is quite strightforward. There is no need to have other models in the beginning. If there are, you allocate wounds to the challenger after they are all dead, otherwise you go to him. In 6th there was the "moral support" thing with rerolls, now you attack the model directly!
 

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Nordicus has the rule correct.

Excess wounds from non-challengers will spill onto the challengers.

However, if those models have no other non-challenging models in the unit to attack they cannot score hits and therefore wounds. Because only the challengers can actually attack each other.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Nordicus has the rule correct.

Excess wounds from non-challengers will spill onto the challengers.

However, if those models have no other non-challenging models in the unit to attack they cannot score hits and therefore wounds. Because only the challengers can actually attack each other.
Where does it say only the challengers can hit each other? If the challengers can only hit each other why did they add "if any"? The "if any" suggests that wounds can be allocated to the model in the challenge even if there is no one else for the extra guys to fight. Where do those wounds come from if the excess models cannot attack the only model left to fight? It doesn't have to specifically state that the other guys can attack because that is implied with the presence of wounds with no one for them to have attacked other than the guy in the challenge.
 

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Where do those wounds come from if the excess models cannot attack the only model left to fight
As I wrote in my response:

if it was a squad of 5 Chaos Marines (4 regular and a aspiring champion) instead of a Daemon Prince, it's another story. Seeing as wounds are carried over both ways, if all 4 Chaos Marines dies outside the challenge, and the Marine player inflicted 7 wounds with his regular guys, then the remaining 3 wounds would be spilled over on the warlord in the challenge. If he survives it, the regular Marines cannot attack him further though - Only his challenger can.

It's to make sure that the overflow of wounds goes both ways. But you can only inflict outside wounds on a guy in a challenge by these means.

It doesn't have to specifically state that the other guys can attack because that is implied with the presence of wounds with no one for them to have attacked other than the guy in the challenge.
Yes it does, as it changes the challenge rule significantly. If you wish to bypass the rule that only combatants in the challenge itself can hit each other, then you need to prove it pretty clearly - Not by implications.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
As I wrote in my response:

if it was a squad of 5 Chaos Marines (4 regular and a aspiring champion) instead of a Daemon Prince, it's another story. Seeing as wounds are carried over both ways, if all 4 Chaos Marines dies outside the challenge, and the Marine player inflicted 7 wounds with his regular guys, then the remaining 3 wounds would be spilled over on the warlord in the challenge. If he survives it, the regular Marines cannot attack him further though - Only his challenger can.

It's to make sure that the overflow of wounds goes both ways. But you can only inflict outside wounds on a guy in a challenge by these means.



Yes it does, as it changes the challenge rule significantly. If you wish to bypass the rule that only combatants in the challenge itself can hit each other, then you need to prove it pretty clearly - Not by implications.
First, implications are perfectly acceptable. Logically speaking a wound cannot exist without an attack. By definition a wound comes after an attack. You cannot simply ignore that fact.

Second, You are right when you say excess wounds left over from others involved flow into the challenge quite simply. No questions there. But you are ignoring the clearly indicated situation, not implied but directly said, of wounds existing when there is no one else to attack. You still have yet to touch on the "if any". If there are other guys involved the wounds go to them first. If not, they go straight through. But again, where are these wounds with no attacks?

You are looking at this from a 6th perspective. In 6th a challenge worked the way you are describing, and had that purpose. The purpose of a challenge in 6th was to isolate 2 models and have them fight it out. By removing Precision Strikes from all Characters the purpose of a challenge is now to allow you to target someone without needing Precision Strikes but the protection is no longer there.
 

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By definition a wound comes after an attack. You cannot simply ignore that fact.
Sure I can - As I have decribed a situation where the wound would come onto the guy in a challenge, without a attack being made against him. If you want to be technical, you can also get wounds from other sources without a attack being present, but that's another matter entirely.

You still have yet to touch on the "if any"
The "If any" rule can be multiple things; It can be a multi-assault, where there are several enemy units in the same combat. It can also be spilled over onto the warlord. When they write "if any" it simply means that those wound that are afflicted can hit any enemy unit or model in that combat.

You are looking at this from a 6th perspective. In 6th a challenge worked the way you are describing, and had that purpose. The purpose of a challenge in 6th was to isolate 2 models and have them fight it out. By removing Precision Strikes from all Characters the purpose of a challenge is now to allow you to target someone without needing Precision Strikes but the protection is no longer there.
Not from a 6th perspective, as I quite like this change to be honest. I am looking at the rule as it is written, black on white. Nowhere does it state that the guy can be hit, only that he can receive excess wounds - Which makes perfect sense.

I have yet to see a proof of the claim that you can hit him - And I'm sorry, but implications are simply not enough to convince me. Interpretations, implications and logical follow-ups are not enough in the ruleset of Warhammer 40k (Say hi to the flying demonprince getting cover behind a tank for example). Unless you can find me a paragraf that states he can be hit, then I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree about this rule and how it works.

Please don't take this as a personal attack however - It's nothing against you at all :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sure I can - As I have decribed a situation where the wound would come onto the guy in a challenge, without a attack being made against him. If you want to be technical, you can also get wounds from other sources without a attack being present, but that's another matter entirely.
You are right. You can do what you want. I just think you shouldn't. I am a student of law, I can't just ignore things like that. It's been beaten out of me.

The "If any" rule can be multiple things; It can be a multi-assault, where there are several enemy units in the same combat. It can also be spilled over onto the warlord. When they write "if any" it simply means that those wound that are afflicted can hit any enemy unit or model in that combat.
I'm not seeing how "if any" could represent any of those things. The reason being that it states wounds must be allocated to a model locked in the same close combat, if any. The first scenario covers all of the possibilities you mention.

Not from a 6th perspective, as I quite like this change to be honest. I am looking at the rule as it is written, black on white. Nowhere does it state that the guy can be hit, only that he can receive excess wounds - Which makes perfect sense.

I have yet to see a proof of the claim that you can hit him - And I'm sorry, but implications are simply not enough to convince me. Interpretations, implications and logical follow-ups are not enough in the ruleset of Warhammer 40k (Say hi to the flying demonprince getting cover behind a tank for example). Unless you can find me a paragraf that states he can be hit, then I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree about this rule and how it works.
I can agree to disagree. I just think it makes more sense to not allow a big baddy to run in and kill my champion with no risk to himself.

Please don't take this as a personal attack however - It's nothing against you at all :)
I have been terribly offended by you and I made a voodoo doll to carry out my revenge. :threaten:

In all seriousness I don't get offended or bugged by differing opinions on the internet. You can't take the internet personal or it will eat you alive. :so_happy:
 

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Nowhere in the Challenge rules does it say attacks cannot be directed at the combatants from outside sources. It just says wounds cannot be allocated to them, unless everybody else is dead.
 

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Nowhere in the Challenge rules does it say attacks cannot be directed at the combatants from outside sources. It just says wounds cannot be allocated to them, unless everybody else is dead.
Exactly. But if there is no one in the beginning is it not the same thing? Single IC = IC "attached" to dead unit? I do say yes.
Basically it says tha IF there are still living models outside the challenge, those models have the priority in wound allocation. then you go to the challenged, hance, IF no one is there, the challenged can have wounds allocated.
 

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we had this discussion the other night and differed in position just as such. i'll give you the scenario and would gladly like to hear all your responses.

I had 2 units of orks one unit of 17+ a nob/PK the second unit was 14 orks +nob/PK so all up 33 models he had a Swarmlord an 2 hive guards obviously he challenged I accepted it with one of the nobs lost him and the spill over was another 4.
his hive guards had a bad run and killed 3 orks.
I hit back and killed the hive guards and 3 wounds carried over which the swarmlord saved.
next turn he challenged and I accepted it lost the other Nob and another 4 orks. now I 20 orks doing nothing but I read it as he was the only character left in the unit so I thought I could just hit him with all my orks. that was the way I interpreted the rule my other orks had no targets left to fight with so they would just roll there attacks through. his argument was they were in a challenge so he couldn't be targeted. that was his whole reason behind challenging.

so what do you guys think of that scenario. Am keen to get others interpretation.

we just let it go as it was the last turn and even if I had of killed his warlord he would've still won buy 2 VP
 

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You should have been able to attack then allocate the generated wounds to the SL since there were no other enemy models left. There are no rules saying attacks cannot be made, only rules that dictate where wounds can be allocated. Tell him to play 7th not 6th.
 

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This seems to be yet another thing that is being over thought. As stated wounds can be allocated to challengers after all other models are removed as casualties...there are no other models to attack in the first place so no, I don't believe you can attack the challenger. If this was meant to work that way I'm pretty sure it would have been spelled out as such. This is an equalizer for the fact that wounds spill over from a challenge and even if the rules can be interpreted that way it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game to me.
 

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"Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models"

That little "if any" is that lovely thing that I keep referencing on other things but without the book in front of me couldn't find :).
This means that
1 model with unit vs 1 model with unit is clearly explained as both are treated as separate until either the characters in challenge are dead, then wounds bleed over or vice versa with the units bleeding onto the characters.

1 model vs 1 model with unit we decided that the 1 model by himself as he is in a challenge HAS to strike his attacks against the other person he is in challenge with first but after that wounds will bleed over. BUT the model with unit is free to attack the person in the challenge as much as they like.

So in affect the characters in challenges always have to strike each other first, and the units have to attack each other first. But with 1 vs many the many can always strike the 1, but the 1 must strike the character he is locked in challenge with.
 

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The thing to keep in mind is this: there is a difference between "attacking" a model and "allocating a wound" to that model. Challenges make absolutely no distinction on whom models may attack, they do however, restrict where wounds can be allocated.

You do not have to attack a particular model. In a combat that includes a challenge the non-challengers just make their attacks and the resulting wounds are subject to the restrictions of a Challenge.
 
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